help - cleaning up redundant attribute commands in congo & placing marks

Hi - 

I'll tackle the easy one first - for the MARK command, you can do what you've done with the 1% "cheat" or you can use the softkey "MARK" found under the Channels softkeys. This command will place a level of DMX 1 onto those channels and will display an M in the intensity part of the channel symbols. It's up to you if you want to change to this setting rather than the 1% - the outcome will be the same, but with less likelihood that a ghosting level would be seen in the fixture.

There is no referenced marking in Congo, so the way you have done it is how it should be done, albeit normally using the Marked intensity state rather than 1%. :-)

Regarding the repeating data - Congo is not a movefade console and depending on how you're working the repeating values could actually make working in Congo easier for you. Bear with me for a minute (in case anyone else ends up in this situation :-) )...

Congo is a preset style, rather than a movefade/tracking style of console. Intensity is always recorded into each preset regardless of whether the level is changing or not. 

In Congo the default setting for recording attributes is called "Record if Active" and this setting causes all device channels with intensity above 0% to store all their attribute information in every preset you write. This will create a lot of repeating data but it also allows you to 1) move presets around in the sequence or onto masters without losing attribute information (tracked values in Eos-speak)., 2) lets you copy states easily without worrying about attributes - every preset contains the whole stage look, and 3) let's you use cue-only/track editing  - the normal record/update commands always perform cue only edits and the track editing commands of UPDATE & ATTRIB and UPDATE & @ LEVEL will do track edits forwards, backwards or in both directions in a sequence. This is where the "Block" flag is used in a sequence to preserve levels as you do in Eos. It has no other function - just to protect steps from track editing commands and the Unblock Attributes wizard.

There is another setting that looks more like a tracking console's operational method called "Record if Changed" - this will record attributes only when they have been touched - have a purple background in the attributes view. This mode does not take intensity into account at all. While this method allows you to see exactly where attributes are moving (advantage) it's really more involved for editing, copying and moving looks around. This is why it's no longer the default state of the console.

The Unblock Attributes wizard will remove repeating attribute (not intensity) data through a series of sequence steps using the simple rule of "delete repeats until a new value is found". It will not take intensity values into consideration - it is a brute force cleanup tool. If you tick the box to respect Block flags in the sequence, then those steps will also be protected. Running the wizard will make a show file that was recorded with "active" look like a show that was recorded with "changed". Editing that show after the fact will mean you have to take into consideration the challenges with copying states that were played back live, deleting steps with moves in them, and so on.

Regarding the question about deleting attributes for channels with no intensity, the console asks each time an update is made if you want to remove attributes for channels with no intensity, so the easiest way to handle this is to confirm that dialog when you make the update that produces this situation. The way to do it on the back end is to go to that preset's Attribute Editor - # PRESET & ATTRIB - and delete the channels' attributes from the preset. So, for example, you want to delete channels 5 and 8 from preset 16 you would type:

16 PRESET & ATTRIB to open the Preset Attribute Editor for preset 16.

Arrow down or use the mouse to select the "Device" cell (just to the right of the intensity cells) for channel 5.

Press DELETE. A dialog will ask you to confirm the deletion with MODIFY - there is no undo other than to NOT update the preset at the end of editing. You can only delete one channel at a time. If you make a mistake, ESC out of the tab without updating and reopen the preset.

Arrow down to the Device cell for channel 8, press DELETE, confirm the dialog with MODIFY.

When you've completed the deletions, press UPDATE to update preset 16.

Please note that this is a manual deletion - meaning the fact that you're deleting attributes for channels without intensity is your personal reason for deleting the attributes. You can also delete the attributes from channels WITH intensity, or you can delete only some attributes (in this case for more than one channel at a time) using spreadsheet-style editing (select multiple cells using the arrows while holding the SELECT key).

I hope this helps - 

Thanks -

Sarah

Sarah - thanks for a very detailed response.

I have a few followup questions.

1. In placing the Mark do you simply have to go to the cue that you want the mark to happen in and use the mark button, or do you have to set the palettes in that cue and then use the Mark function?  And do you have to record after the Mark?

2. Everything you wrote about the preset style of the board makes sense and was a known quantity.  I think we used Record if Active.  Now, if I understand you correctly, the wizard will remove redundant attribute commands - IE, if cue 1 has channel (2) recorded in palette A, and cue 2 has as well, it will remove the command from cue 2 essentially allowing the value to track from cue 1.

Okay - I hope I got that right.

Perhaps that won't solve my problem though, which is this:

Preset 1 has channel (3) at palette B and is in use.

Preset 2 has channel (3) at palette C and is not in use (used to be, but was taken out later)

Preset 3 has channel (3) at palette D and is in use.

It seems like I have this sort of situation all over the place which is causing some unwanted fly-aways, etc.  So I'm looking for a way to _easily_ see where the attributes are changing but not being used at that new change so I can clean them up.

Does this make sense?

If it is easier to talk this over by phone, can you send me an email direct and I'll send back my phone number?

Thanks!

Marcus

Hi Marcus - 

1) Mark is an intensity level just like any other - so there's no difference in selecting a channel and then pressing MARK vs. selecting a channel and typing 50 @ LEVEL (or @ LEVEL 50 in "at mode"). The only thing that's special about it is that it displays "M" instead of a number in the intensity field. Use it as you would any other intensity level.

2) If you know which channels are causing you troubles with unintended movement, select those channels and open the Track List (press TRACK). This is the spreadsheet editior for the sequence on the main playback, filtered through your channel selection. It will first show you intensity info for those channels, but you can add information to that spreadsheet using FORMAT & FOCUS/COLOR/BEAM (for whole categories) or FORMAT & Wheel Key (for individual parameters). In this view you can either delete the parameters directly, or use it to find out which presets contain the "bad" data and then use the method I mentioned above to clear that data out. I might set myself up to check channels for intensity values and focus or just pan data, for example (to keep the table narrow and easier to read) then open the Preset Attribute Editor by pressing (LIVE or PLAYBACK - to get off of the Track List, then # PRESET & ATTRIB - if you don't leave the Track List, the command # PRESET will be executed and will select all the channels in that preset, which I don't think you want.)

Make sense? The track list will always show the current channe l selection in Live, so you can change what channel(s) you're looking at in there by just making new selections. So long as you keep the track list open, any additional parameters you've added to the spreadsheet will stay and will show the data for the newly selected channels as you select them. If you close and reopen the track list, you will have to add back the parameters other than intensity.

Happy to help -

Sarah

Great Sarah - thanks.

I will try both things.

It seems, if I really want a clean show, that I should use the Unblock Attribute Wizard first, then go through and clean up the tracks.  Would that be wise?  Or would the Unblock Attribute Wizard be unhelpful in this case?

Hi Marcus - 

My personal belief is that the Unblock Attributes wizard may be extra work with some bad side effects later if you need to edit anything. It's probably an unneeded step. It also would not help in those cases where you have one preset in one palette, the next in some other palette and then the next in a third palette - each of those would be seen as a unique move and the unneeded palette in the middle would not be cleaned out. Know what I mean?

However, you can always make a copy of your main show file and give it a try to see if it does what you need it to. :-)

Thanks -

Sarah

Hi Marcus - 

My personal belief is that the Unblock Attributes wizard may be extra work with some bad side effects later if you need to edit anything. It's probably an unneeded step. It also would not help in those cases where you have one preset in one palette, the next in some other palette and then the next in a third palette - each of those would be seen as a unique move and the unneeded palette in the middle would not be cleaned out. Know what I mean?

However, you can always make a copy of your main show file and give it a try to see if it does what you need it to. :-)

Thanks -

Sarah

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for everything.  I ended up not using the Wizard and just taking away redundant parameter commands via the sequence editor.  

The documentation is not very clear in the fact that the palette or values as they appear in the track list only need to appear at the first instance of an intensity level (whether M or a level) in any given track, not in each preset where the fixture is used (not including live moves of course...).  Perhaps that is a function of the documentation being written for a world where this kind of desk is typical.

Speaking of documentation - my French programmer complains to me every day that the French documentation is half the length of the English documentation.  Are there plans for a more thorough translation?

Thanks again for jumping on my questions so quickly,

Marcus

This comes down to the fundamental difference between then consoles.

Congo is a Preset-based console, where Intensity is HTP and all non-Intensity attributes are "LTP" - Latest takes Precedence.
Eos is a move-fade tracking console.

LTP means attributes stay where they are until you move them.
- So if a light gets set to "Red" in the first Preset played back, it'll stay red until it's changed to something else.

That might be by you selecting the light 'live' and altering the colour, or by another Preset being played (eg on a Master).

So deleting an attribute in Congo is actually very similar to @Enter'ing an attribute in Eos.

In Eos, it turns into 'tracked data' - which means there is no move and it's not 'really' there.
- It's shown so that you know the last value the cuelist set it, and what would occur if you Asserted that Cue - however, it may not be that level if you have multiple cuelists!

In Congo deleting the attribute value also means 'no move'.

FYI: Congo's [Refresh] button is similar to hitting [Assert] [Enter] on Eos.
You may find that button quite useful during rehearsals.