Cue stack and tracking feature request and thanks to ETC UK

Hi there -

There may be some misunderstanding of the concept of presets and sequences here, or simply a misapplication of terms. Congo doesn't have traditional cues as record targets. The "preset" is what one traditionally thinks of as a "cue" because it contains the data that creates the "look" on stage. All a Sequence does is create a playback order for those looks and a context within which crossfade timing makes sense. A sequence goes out and gets data to play back when the GObutton is pressed. Presets actually live in a library outside of the sequence. Sequences are very much like playlists from iTunes or any other MP3 software. The Step number is merely an index number.

So, traditionally in Avab style, it is the Preset number that is used as the cue number, not the step number. This is why Presets are allowed to have decimal numbers. Congo offers you the option of reusing Presets, though, and if you choose to do this you will have to make some decisions. If I am reusing presets, I do count on that step number a lot. But usually I would not operate this way if I had a Stage Manager on the show. If you want to reuse presets and you have a stage manager, as Mat says, you might want to have a discussion with that person and explain to them how the console works and why it's a benefit to reuse the numbers. If they don't want to call out-of-order numbers, then you can work exactly the way most consoles work now by copying the preset to a new number.

Regarding the TRACK issues you mention. I have taken a look at those and there are some improvements we can make there. There are two syntaxes you should know about though - TRACK & MASTER KEY to look at the track list for a sequence on a master, and # TRACK & SEQ to look at the track list for a sequence not on any available playback. I have just tried this on the version we are testing now (v4.3.2) so I would guess that the editing issue you mention is in v4.3.1. We will take a look at it.

Thanks -

Sarah 

Hi there -

There may be some misunderstanding of the concept of presets and sequences here, or simply a misapplication of terms. Congo doesn't have traditional cues as record targets. The "preset" is what one traditionally thinks of as a "cue" because it contains the data that creates the "look" on stage. All a Sequence does is create a playback order for those looks and a context within which crossfade timing makes sense. A sequence goes out and gets data to play back when the GObutton is pressed. Presets actually live in a library outside of the sequence. Sequences are very much like playlists from iTunes or any other MP3 software. The Step number is merely an index number.

So, traditionally in Avab style, it is the Preset number that is used as the cue number, not the step number. This is why Presets are allowed to have decimal numbers. Congo offers you the option of reusing Presets, though, and if you choose to do this you will have to make some decisions. If I am reusing presets, I do count on that step number a lot. But usually I would not operate this way if I had a Stage Manager on the show. If you want to reuse presets and you have a stage manager, as Mat says, you might want to have a discussion with that person and explain to them how the console works and why it's a benefit to reuse the numbers. If they don't want to call out-of-order numbers, then you can work exactly the way most consoles work now by copying the preset to a new number.

Regarding the TRACK issues you mention. I have taken a look at those and there are some improvements we can make there. There are two syntaxes you should know about though - TRACK & MASTER KEY to look at the track list for a sequence on a master, and # TRACK & SEQ to look at the track list for a sequence not on any available playback. I have just tried this on the version we are testing now (v4.3.2) so I would guess that the editing issue you mention is in v4.3.1. We will take a look at it.

Thanks -

Sarah 

Thanks for the replies,

Perhaps I didn't make it clear it my original post and reading back it's not great.

I understand that the desk stores the look of the scene in the Preset and the timing and order of presets in the Sequence list. It's all very logical.

I also understand that at present the desk uses the Preset number as the Cue number for that Sequence, and that each Sequence Step is given an automatic number.

What I am suggesting is removing the need to make a choice as to whether the numbering for a Sequence list is contiguous but changing (using the automatic Step number) or non-contiguous (using the Preset number) when reusing Presets.

My suggestion was to allow the programmer to edit the step number. So instead to it simply being an automatic index number to the Sequence list it becomes the fixed identity of that Step. Adding a Step before it does not renumber it, and point Steps are allowed. This allows the reuse of Presets without affecting the contiguous static numbering needed by DSMs etc.

This would also appear to have knock on benefits being that the contents of many Steps and Submasters can changed simply by editing the contents of one Preset without needing to duplicated that change everywhere that look is used. It would also give users with more than one Sequence list in a show file the choice between separate Cue numbers in each Sequence list or the ability to repeat Cue numbers.
Sequence 1, Cue 1 can be different from Sequence 2, Cue 1
And again the ability to have contiguous numbering for the benefit of DSMs etc. Instead of currently having the possibility of Cues 1, 3, 5 being in Sequence list 1 and 2, 4, 6 being in Sequence list 2.

I hope this makes what I'm suggesting clearer. 

I understand your point. The Stage manager thiing is an issue. We faced a similar problem on Smartfade - now solved by inserting  .point steps!

Congo crosses so many markets it is amazing. I think reusing presets is a nice feature - but mainly for those doing industrials and exhibition work. And you must be careful because of the way Congo stores ML parameter data, the preset may not look the way you expect. manay people doing these types of shows select the setup option to record all parameters to all presets so they can reuse presets.

If I were doing a play to be called by a stage manager I would not reuse presets, except of course to duplicate the look and record it as a new preset. This means more editting if you change the "base preset" often. If you use ML's and palettes this is no problem since they are referenced. But with intensities it is a problem.

Eos uses Cues - and has an object called a preset which is an All-Palette including intensities. By calling up the preset and recording it to a cue you now have a "referenced cue." I know Congo had a concept of intensity palettes on "The List" early on. Perhaps we will see it again.

Smartfade did implement the concept of .point steps (Step 1.1 and so on.) This is something to consider. Thanks for posting!

 David

Anne, thanks for that suggestion; I've just come across the same issue. I've only had my desk for a short time and took my classes on the console 3 1/2 years ago so I wasn't expecting this behaviour.... I too would like ETC to look at allowing sequence step numbers to be edited and have decimal part numbers...

We're a road-house so a lot of what we do is on-the-fly busking which is exactly what the Congo is so good at, but we also do shows where my LD or I am designing an opera or dance or theatre piece in a very short time, and expecting our SM, who is only slightly familiar with the show and often doesn't have a regular prompt book, to call it. As such, as we end up designing a cue stack (or sequence in Congo language) in which I regularly re-use presets, it would be really beneficial to be able to use the step numbers for calling, as there's enough chaos without the SM being expected to track which Lights 3 she called when we go to LX3 36 times in 45 minutes.  But at the same time, I need the flexibility of using preset 3 repeatedly, so that when the director decides that one look we use 36 times in the show needs to be a little brighter or whatever, that I can change all those versions of that look at one time.

I realize Congo's main design concept isn't based around theatrical Expression-style cueing but is meant for faster on-the-fly work, but it surprises me a little that we don't have this capability... if I've got plenty of time and I'm working on a 4-week tech week it's not an issue as I can go through other processes and use preset numbers as my cue numbers and not re-use (but just copy) matching presets... but the ability to insert steps without renumbering the steps would allow me to use the cue-stack style of programming and operation in a more rapid and on-the-fly manner... which is exactly that half-rock-n-roll, half-theatrical world of grey area that I live in and that the Congo is meant to handle.

Sarah, any chance you can shed some light on whether this is a major issue for the programming and design of the software, or if this is a feature that we could maybe see added? I could see two possible fixes... both seem simple from my perspective though I'm sure there's all kinds of under-the-hood challenges...

1) Simply add part-steps and allow editing of the step number by the operator - obviously this could be a lot more complex in programming than it sounds.

2) Add a column to the sequence step that works like another step name, but have it be called "Cue #" or some such, and let it auto-number to match the step number unless the operator edits it.

What do you think? I can't imagine there aren't lots more Congo users out there like me and the original poster who really could see this as a major help for rapid-design SM-cue-called-shows....

The other option is to use the sequence note column to be the "cue" number that is called by the SM.

I understand what you are saying, but I always did the show so that the SM called it sequentially by preset # (and I copied preset info to new #'s), or I ran the show and I didn't give a fig what the preset number was.

Take care,

John

John, that's effective for operations purposes, but for making last-minute changes, it loses the whole value of using a console with presets - for instance, I'm currently doing a dance show that is one act of a regular designed performance, and one act of a recital. The recital has 40 acts and 40 blackouts inbetween. I'm using it in a cued theatrical style with an SM calling the show, and every blackout is the same preset. The advantage is, when the director decides half an hour between shows that a little blue toplight is necessary in every blackout, it takes me a fraction of a second to make that change to the preset, and all 40 blackouts are updated. There are other ways to deal with this of course, but you can translate that to more complex situations, and it gets more and more difficult to deal with.

Essentially, we're forced to choose between using presets for cue numbers, which loses the purpose of presets, or using step numbers, which causes problems with inserting cues into the promptbook & renumbering. Alternative is of course using the sequence text or note as suggested earlier, which is what I'm currently doing, but that doesn't auto-number nor does it allow for Goto and Jump To B functionality based off cue numbers...

Hi there -

I'm going to also suggest the S-Text (or step text) option here. You can choose to make this the mythical cue number or simply a descriptive text and then have a friendly bit of liquid refreshment with your stage manager so that they become less troubled by calling the same preset number again.

We will have another think about decimal-steps, however if we make this change it will not come for some time. In the immediate future, s-text is the way to go I think. You can enter these texts pretty quickly using column editing in the sequence list, and you can use copy/paste (CTRL-C/CTRL V) as well to work with texts in those cells. Hopefully this will help in the immediate future.

Thanks much!!

Sarah

I have tried re-using presets but find a few problems:

• It is necessary to set goto to use step number, otherwise you don't know which step you'll end up in - with the renumbering problems mentioned above.
• Presets are all-or-nothing.  If the director decides a scene needs a special it cannot be added to only one cue without creating a new preset - and then the base state will no longer be updated.
• It's difficult to insert a cue on the fly because the cue is inserted in preset-number order.  If the presets are out of order who knows where it will end up?

I would love to see intensity palettes.  Or extend the group functionality.  Such that a group of channels + intensities can be pulled proportionally into a preset (e.g 70% of group 1) and automatically updated when the group changes.  It would be best if the preset could override the intensity from the group (up or down) by including a channel explicitly.  Multiple groups in a preset would have to be on HTP basis.  I can imagine groups appearing in the channel screens before the actual channels - or taking over spare channels.

Another way would be to allow presets to reference other presets - but that leads to problems of creating circular references.

I suspect that it may be possible to create an always-on effect to do this but I haven't had the time to try.

Trevor

Goto Preset # will always move forwards in the Sequence.
You can also use the Goto list ([Goto] with no number) to see the whole Sequence and pick a place to Goto.

When recording a Preset with # [Record] (Build Seq on), Congo will make a best-guess as to where it should be, working from the start to the end looking for the first apparently sensible place.

# [Record] & [Preset] will record the preset and *not* put it into the current Sequence, so you can pop open the Sequence list straight to where you currently are with [Modify] & [Playback] and then Insert this Preset as required.

If the Director wants an existing Preset with a couple of changes, just copy it: There's a couple of fast ways:

Live: Pop the original into Live using old# [Preset] & [Live], make the change, then Record it as required.

Blind: Open the Sequence with [Modify] & [Playback], scroll to correct location, old# [Insert], select Preset number cell, new# [Modify], choose 'Copy'.
Now make the change and [Update].
(You will need to copy first otherwise you'll update to the original instead of the new.)