Scroller Madness

Thanks guys.  It's nice to know I didn't miss something obvious.  I have all my color palettes labelled with the frame numbers, since that's how our designers tend to think, I was actually just hoping for a reference for myself for when I lose the piece of paper with the scroll colors on it.

 I can, however, see a possible drawback to calibrating the scrolls backwards.  Well, it's pretty minor, but if you do that you have to remember to watch out for any quick scrolls to home (no color), since they'll be going to the opposite end of the scroll from where 'frame 1' is calibrated.  Not a fatal flaw in my little corner of theatre, but possibly annoying none the less.  In the end, I'll never know, since I'm going to get the scrolls physically reversed, even if I have to do it myself.

Brian

I recently had cause to revisit the scrollers on encoders thing.  I realized that during these dance school recitals, I have no designer whining about seeing what frame a light is in.  I simply have to pick a color fast  and move on.  We have two sets of 26 frame scrollers.  In order to avoid using 52 Direct Selects for discreet Color Palettes we use one set of palettes for both, labeled as Frame #.  Then we are constantly referring to two sheets of paper to decipher the gel colors.  I was very pleased to rediscover that once I built my custom scroll I was able to use the Color Picker.  Just pick any point on the spectrum and it automatically takes you to the nearest available match on your scroll.  Though I still think it won't be of much use when working for designers who starve for info, I can foresee myself using it more in the future.  Here are a few questions and notes:

When I built the scroll and put it on the encoder, the touch screen buttons (non-expanded) said Min and Max.  Is there a reason that can't be Next and Last?  It caused me a lot of unintended scroller runs. 

When in Coarse mode, there was no 'click' to indicate a full frame.  Therefore the only way to call a frame was in the expanded mode.  I think this is a bug because it bugged me.  Was I doing something wrong?

I am assuming that Calibrating a scroller should have no affect on pre-existing color palettes?

How does one Import a calibrated custom scroll into a new show?   Are they stored in Fixtures, Patch or what?

For Palettes, please remind me of the syntax needed to add new scroller channels (say 1 thru 10) and have them included in the existing show palettes.

Is there currently any plans for having some Encoder labels showing in the Tombstone, maybe as a choice instead of Palette labels?  It sure would be cool...

Thanks much, Brent 

(as of ver 1.4.5 on pc, 1.4.2 on console)

Calibrating a scroller only adjusts the snap points for NEXT/LAST on the encoder.  You find that the scroller value onscreen is different after calibrating then before, therefore all color palettes need to be updated with the new DMX values.  If your encoded does not have NEXT/LAST try using Wybron Coloram2 for a scroller type. I believe the custom values are stored on a per string type basis.  Per unit is more than we can expect.  I create a new string for each batch of strings, even if the frames are the same. 

As far a patching scrollers, or any other non-conventionals, I want the interesting part (ie Wybron Coloram2 etc) to be part 1, so that when I'm in Live Table packed I see "Coloram2....." instead of "dimmer" above the table.  I switch to Patch by Address after all non-dimmer patching is done, as these dimmer addresses  will be safely added to additional parts.  I try to organize patch to make maximum use of NEXT / LAST as the console keyboard seems to lend itself to typos.

I reserve Color Palettes 1 to 20...etc for color frame based scrollers.  CP 1 = Frame one, and so one.  We also have CXI's, so CP 101 - 184 is taken directly from the CXI colormix manual.  I notice the Color Picker is timid about taking parameters to their maximum value, so we have palettes for Max Red, Blue, Green etc.

To preserve palette info from show to show, I don't start a show from scratch, but just delete show channels cues, designer's groups and presets.  It's important to keep one channel of each color change type to preserve the palettes. I have 1001 = Coloram2, 1002 = CXI, 1003 = VL1k 1004 = VL3500,1005=autoyoke w/scroller, and so on.  You should deep clear after deleting all this as I have noticed what could be called artifacts in the tombstone display, most likely from corrupt persistent memory.

After installing a new string, I patch 3 or 4 of the scrollers  into 1001 (to get a consensus) and then calibrate them in the boardroom, if possible, writing down the values for archive purposes.  In blind spreadsheet I set the values for 1001 in CP-1  and so on, not by typing it in but by using the NEXT/LAST on the encoded (encoder expanded mode is helpful here).  Why? Because the console will fetch up the Hue/Saturation value for that gel as well as the DMX value.  I can copy the Hue/Sats to my CMY mixers to get, if not a perfect match, at least a starting point (VL's suck at mixing color).

With mixers I notice that I'll get Hue/Sat greyed out or the physical parameters (scroller,scroller2,C M Y etx), but not both.  This is to avoid a chicken vs egg situation (and a crash).  With scrollers especially CXI's you want to fade by the physical parameter not HUE/SAT, which is what the color picker gives you.  To shift the emphasis I would type chan 1002 scroller scroller2 @ + 0 ENTER.  When this is done the console calculates new values for the greyed out parameters.  The formulas are lossy so you can't flip back without data corruption, which means going back to the color picker gel library to start over.

I can fix all the CXI's at once in blind.

CP 101 Thru 184 ENTER.  Group2(show cxi's)scroller scroller2 @ + 0 ENTER

You can use the same technique to populate your custom string info into the show.

<BLIND SPREADSHEET> CP 1 thru CP(Last)<ENTER>Chan 1001 Copy to Group(Coloram2)ENTER  Chan 1003 Copy to Group (VL1K) ENTER and so on.

You don't have to be in "Spreadsheet " to do a spreadsheet style command, by the way

When I select a scroller channel the console will convert the DMX screen value the correct gel name on the encoder screen,  which is the second reason you  should go to the trouble of building a custom scroll type.  I did have a network glitch once which caused the console to drop the scroller info, but since I had the correct DMX in palettes I was able to proceed thru tech anyway.

Of course , most of this applies to beam palettes as well.

It would be great to have an autocopy feature.  If a fixture had no value in a particular palette, values from the highest fixture of the same type would be copied over.  So If I saved a new mix on one light, setting the whole group to the same palette would populate the rest of it.

Well, here's an update on my encoder situation-

One of my scroller groups is 21 thru 31.  They are all patched as Wybron coloram II's with the same custom scoll profile.  They are all in the same Frame 1.  If I call the whole group, I get Min and Max on the Encoder.  What's particularly vexing is that the is a picture of the next and last frame above the words min and max  (all the way through the string.)  It makes it very easy to press the Min or Max button, hoping for Next or Last, thus running the full length of the scroll unintentionally.

However, I discovered that if I call channels 21 thru 25 instead, I get Next and Last plus clicks on the wheel.  Same if I call 26 thru 30.  Turns out that the scollers are in Part 1 of 21 thru 25, and Part 2 of 26 thru 30.  It looks as though the console is treating them as different 'fixtures' or something just because they are in different parts.

Can anyone tell me if this is based on intentional logic or if this is something that might get remedied in the future?

Must I be expected to make sure that all my scrollers/devices are in consistent channel parts?  Various edits of patch invariably happen while ringing out the rig.

What is the easiest way to switch the two parts of a series of channels?  In this instance, I will write down the dimmer address of 26 thru 30. Delete those part ones, then repatch so that they land on part two instead.  I will have to do this on a couple other groups as well.  It sounds like a drag to me.

(using version 1.4.5 offline)

The only way I get MIN/MAX on this version is if the first channel in the selection is not a frame based scroller (ie dimmer or CXI or VL) .  I can't get pictures over them though.  Scrambling the patch and even mixing types didn't affect it, although a ETC tech told me that patch order may have affected palettes a few version back.  Consistancy never hurts. You should indicate the version your running since each version  is another spin of the wheel.

I notice that the NEXT/LAST encoder keys generate a command line message (CHAN 21 SCROLLER_NEXT).  You can "learn" this into a macro (LAST as well).  You may have to clean it up with the macro editor, be sure and leave the line terminator symbol if you do.

HI,

Attached is my showfile if anyone is bored enough to care.  The specifics are a little different than what I was ranting about off the top of my head, before, but the problem is still the same.

The issue is with group 20, which is channels 71 through 90.  If I call channels 71 thru 90, I get Next and Last on the Encoder.  If I call Group 20 (which I am way more prone to do) I get Min and Max.  Channel 82 is the only one that is patched differently (parts one and two reversed).

I was able to fix it for my show but yeah it was a royal drag.  Deleting part one in order to bump up part two of course removed the info from the entire show, duh.  But since the channel worked with the group the whole time, it gave me the opportunity to practice copying cue/palette info into new channels.  Next time, I would unpatch instead of delete, but oh well. 

33board, thanks for the tip on Blind Palette Spreadsheet I had never thought to look at it like that before.  Now about channel part consistency- sure its not a bad thing but I'm not ready to expend a lot of time and energy to accomplish it.  Tell me how to do it without, say, patching scrollers first, checking for mistakes, then patching dimmers.  On the important shows, I usually patch most everything in the late afternoon of the load in day, run a channel check, then fix patching mistakes during focus on the second day.  If I have miskeyed something in part one of a two part channel, how do fix it while maintaining the original part structure?

Oh yeah, and about calibrating-  I realized that since my color palettes were built as full frames, I was able to use them to calibrate with. [DS Group 20 DS Color Palette 1.  Calibrate]   So forth, so on.  That was pretty cool.  Now. when I call a Color palette, its still just the CP label in the tomstone, but I can at least look down at the Encoder to see the gel name as well (with no plusses or minusses).  However, when I took 33boardop's advice on permanently placing special device channels into my base file, it didn't work so well.  When I took calibrated channel 71 and moved to channel 451 it was no longer calibrated to the palettes.  Am I doing something wrong?  I shouldn't have to calibrate them every show when using Move and Copy, should I?  Even though it is super easy when using the Palettes.

Oh yeah, and about calibrating-  I realized that since my color palettes were built as full frames, I was able to use them to calibrate with. [DS Group 20 DS Color Palette 1.  Calibrate]   So forth, so on.  That was pretty cool.  Now. when I call a Color palette, its still just the CP label in the tomstone, but I can at least look down at the Encoder to see the gel name as well (with no plusses or minusses).  However, when I took 33boardop's advice on permanently placing special device channels into my base file, it didn't work so well.  When I took calibrated channel 71 and moved to channel 451 it was no longer calibrated to the palettes.  Am I doing something wrong?  I shouldn't have to calibrate them every show when using Move and Copy, should I?  Even though it is super easy when using the Palettes.

You can activate reference labels in setup.  Any palette without a label will still show CP, FP etc.  I'd rather the LD use the palette number so I don't have to hunt through the touchscreens.  Also palette labels don't tell you what palette number your in either.  It would be nice if in table mode with multiple columns in the same palette, both the palette numbers and labels could be shown (via column bridging).

I never move my "dummy" channels (which are patched to dmx limbo), although moving channels in patch should move all show data as well, I just don't trust it. I use copy to  in patch  and in palettes as well.

I should emphasize that "calibrating" is only telling the encoder software where the center of the frame is, and not creating a output profile.  Your palettes need updating as well.

BSmith

After loading your show into 1.4.5 offline, I observed the problem you describe.  By recording different versions of group 20  using a divide and conquer strategy.  I confirmed that the reverse patched 82 was the problem.  At first, repatching made it worse until I remembered to add your custom scroll.

I patch my scrollers using my dummy fixture 1001 COPY TO CHAN 31 THRU 50 (example).  this copies type & scroller info.  I then use NEXT to address each scroller.  I then FORMAT change to patch by address to add dimmer info, since this adds parts automatically.  Then in the palettes I copy 1001 values to my Show scroller channels.  If I have to change strings, I'll redo 1001 palettes using values I stored in an EXCEL spreadsheet, if the string is one I have already calibrated before. 

I don't think that's true about calibrating and palettes.  When I calibrated my scrolls, my prexisting palettes were still correct.

I don't ever expect to move the dummy channels again either, but they originated from a show so I Moved them to the dummy position.  I do think that the calibrated status of them should follow though, Moved or Copied.

BSmith,

The way you described you procedure, it seems you are calibrating the encoder with palette information, so they would seem equal. Try adjusting the string with the encoder, calibrate, then check if the palettes produce the same value as the NEXT/LAST softkey does.  I just tried it and they do not match.

71 HOME<ENTER> (scroller value = 0)

71 RECORD COLOR PALETTE 1 <ENTER>

71 <ENTER>(encoder set fine, turn till scroller value = 2 (dmx). Calibrate. Plus sign goes away.)

71 COLOR PALETTE 1<ENTER> (scroller value = 0)

71 <ENTER> (encoder NEXT/LAST. scroller value = 2)

I have verified that calibration info is stored in patched fixtures.  If you delete all channels of a scroller/string type, the calibration goes away.

I  think I get it.  My CP's were manually dialed full frames.  My encoder was also manually dialed full frames.  I realized that the two could both be full frames and still be a couple DMX points apart.  That's when I decided to calibrate from the CP's to make the two indentical.  It sounded like you were saying that I would need update my CP's after that.   Guess not?  I still think that the CP's and encoder frames should stay indentical if I find the need to move the channel elsewhere. 

All of both sets of scrolllers have the same deviation.  It's not like I'm needing to calibrate each fixture individually.  On the Strand 500's I could just put a Profile on the on all of scrollers at once to take care of it  

Now back to channel 82 of Group 20, trying to edit the patch to make them like the others-  Deleting part one was not the best idea, if it were a channel doing discreet things in the show, I wouldn't have had anything to copy its info from.  Today, I tried to unpatch part one.  It left opened that slot, but when I repatched the address, it created a part three.  I was also unable to patch to a specific part.

As I said, I have to expect to be fixing patch mistakes occasionally.  It's also necessary to add or change things in patch.  If its going to be important for me to keep devices in consistent channel parts in order to make the console work correctly, I need to be able to patch to specific parts.  Surely there exists a way to do that?

I used to do the same on our 530.  One time we rented CXI's with the back string backwards.  Full red came out full green.  All I had to do was patch the back string dmx @ -100%, problem solved.

When I repatched 82 I used this:

CHAN 82 PART 2 TYPE COLORAM2 @ (whatever it was)<ENTER>

CHAN 82 PART 1 TYPE DIMMER @ (likewise)<ENTER>

Then I remembered to set the Scroller attribute to big scroll.  It doen't sound like you were using the PART key.