creating a fixture in the EOS family

as an example: the intensity channel will have min max as 0 to 255, because that's the minimal and maximal value that can be output as dmx to the device. but humans don't like thinking in 0 to 255 for dimmer, we like percent. so user min and user max would be 0 to 100. when we say 100 we mean 255 dmx-ly speaking.

Actually as I think about it that doesn't make sense. The default values for a new fixture are 0 - 255 and 0 - 100. if 100 is just another way of saying dmx 255 how does the console know you mean 255 when putting 100 or dmx 100? If the User columns have to be percentages then that means we have to calculate every dmx value in the first two columns to enter a percentage AND when entering something over 100 it should reject that, but it does not. So I still don't understand why they two different sections or 4 columns.

i haven't said the user min/max columns have to be percent, that was an example. the user min is the value that the user inters in live or blind to make the console output the value in the min column. and user max is the value that we enter when we want the console to output the value in the max column. everything in between is calculated linearly

I'm sure I will never understand it in the library. I know you never said that. I definitely believe I have a communication error. The defaults when CREATING A NEW FIXTURE are 0-255 first two columns and 0-100 in user (second two columns). So the console or program or etc or whatever says percent. That's where I don't understand it and have absolutely no idea what we are supposed to put in those columns when building a fixture, especially when there are multiple ranges. Nothing to do with what we enter when in live or blind AFTER the fixture is built.

Here's an example to my last reply. I would paste a copy of a screen shot in this message but I don't know how to do that in these forums so I have to just explain it. I found a simple fixture: V250 Lynx 16B. I made a copy of it so I could edit it and see the settings. I then looked at Beam FX select which had two ranges. Here are the values: Number 1 Min 0 Max 127 User Min 0 User Max 1 Label Open Number 2 Min 128 Max 255 User Min 1 User Max 2 Label effect cont. Even more confusing because it only shows User values 0, 1 and 2. So are they percentages or dmx values and how do they compare to the other Min Max values? That fixture Color Select has 10 ranges that don't go any higher than 130 in the first Max column and number consecutively (1,2, 3, 4, etc) in the User columns never getting higher than 10. I hope I am being a little more clear on my confusion.

Hi Jeff

The Min Max are DMX Values.

User Min, User Max, are the values you enter as a user.

Lets use Colour Select as an example as it's easier to understand.

In your Lynx fixture you must have 10 colour which get split into the 10 ranges. Now one of these colour will be white and possibly the tenth colour is white and it use DMX values 0 to 130 to select the 10 colour.

To save you needing to type DMX 55, we're letting you just select (User Range) 3 and it outputs DMX value 55 (as a example).

As for the forum post, if you select 'Use Rich Formatting', you can then add attachments.

I'm pretty sure I won't ever understand this, primarily because I can't explain my confusion well enough to people who understand it very well. Nick you clarified the first two columns are DMX values and I kinda thought that since everything seems to be some rang of 0-255 in the fixtures I looked at, including the Lynx. However still not clear at all on the User columns and what we are supposed to enter when building fixtures ourselves. I have seen values like described in the Lynx that only go from 1 - 10 and others where they show 0 - 100 when there is only one range and others where they show the exact same values as the first two "DMX" columns. So just don't get it how the fixture library differentiates between what is entered either a dmx value or not.

I think some of the problem is, you think ETC are doing something funny with the DMX but what we're trying to do is make it more consistent across fixtures. It's the fixture manufactures that don't do the same thing with the same values but you want the same result.

The user values are just how you want to control it not how the fixture makes it work. Each Parameter will use 0-255 DMX but the param may do 256 things or just 2 things.

Another couple of examples.

If I have Iris, some fixtures may use 0-255 DMX to go from iris fully open to iris closed. You could set that User ranges to be 0-255 or 0-100 to make your life easier, it will always go through the full 0-255 DMX range but if you want 25% Iris you don't need to do the maths (or math as you would say).

Some manufactures will use 0-200 DMX for Iris Open to Close and then DMX 201-255 for Iris pulse slow to fast. This would be turned into 2 Ranges DMX 0-200 and 201-255. The advantage of having user ranges is you can copy values between fixture types, So when you copy Iris at 50% from one type to iris on another type you will get 50% of iris but one will use DMX 127 and the other DMX 100.

The same goes for Zoom. Both types will use DMX 0-255 but one may have a zoom 10 degrees to 30 degrees, the other will can go from 12 degrees to 70 degrees. If you put type 1 at 20 degrees and copy it to the other type it will copy the user range so both will be at 20 degrees.

I think some of the problem is, you think ETC are doing something funny with the DMX but what we're trying to do is make it more consistent across fixtures. It's the fixture manufactures that don't do the same thing with the same values but you want the same result. -- Actually quite the contrary. I know ETC has set this up with two different sets of 0-? values for a very good reason and I know there are a million manufacturers that do it their way which makes it that much more difficult for console manufacturers to get them working. So that's actually not at all what I am thinking. I am thinking "how do I know what to enter when building a fixture?" The user values are just how you want to control it not how the fixture makes it work. Each Parameter will use 0-255 DMX but the param may do 256 things or just 2 things. I'll have to chew on this a bit. Not getting how the "fixture makes it work" or how dmx may do 256 out of 255 things. Another couple of examples. If I have Iris, some fixtures may use 0-255 DMX to go from iris fully open to iris closed. You could set that User ranges to be 0-255 or 0-100 to make your life easier, it will always go through the full 0-255 DMX range but if you want 25% Iris you don't need to do the maths (or math as you would say). First: 0-255 and 0-100 is exactly what I am stuck at. If I put 0-100 how does the console differentiate between that being a dmx value 100 and a percent value 100? So if I want it to be 25%, yes it is easier to put 25 instead of calculating 63 but again, how does it know my 25 isn't dmx 25 instead of % 25? I'm just not getting this. Once again, just trying to understand what to enter when building a fixture that isn't in the library. Some manufactures will use 0-200 DMX for Iris Open to Close and then DMX 201-255 for Iris pulse slow to fast. This would be turned into 2 Ranges DMX 0-200 and 201-255. The advantage of having user ranges is you can copy values between fixture types, So when you copy Iris at 50% from one type to iris on another type you will get 50% of iris but one will use DMX 127 and the other DMX 100. The first part I get. That's the purpose of the first two columns which contain dmx values "only" I am guessing. The second part also makes sense but again in the User columns, how does it know it is 50% and not dmx 50. The only way I could get all of this is if the User columns were ONLY percentages, but as I understand it accepts dmx up to 255 also and there is no switch or setting to tell it what the fixture programmer wants when building it. The same goes for Zoom. Both types will use DMX 0-255 but one may have a zoom 10 degrees to 30 degrees, the other will can go from 12 degrees to 70 degrees. If you put type 1 at 20 degrees and copy it to the other type it will copy the user range so both will be at 20 degrees. Lost on this one.

jeff, it's actually not important if the user column is percent or something else, because when entering a value in Live you don't get a choice of which measurement is to be taken. Chan 1 Zoom 20 Enter. you don't say Chan 1 Zoom 20° Enter or Chan 1 Zoom 20% Enter. you just give a number. and the desk will use this number, look it up in the User min/max columns, compare its place in the User range to the range in the Min/Max columns and then output the correct DMX value.

jeff, it's actually not important if the user column is percent or something else, because when entering a value in Live you don't get a choice of which measurement is to be taken. Chan 1 Zoom 20 Enter. you don't say Chan 1 Zoom 20° Enter or Chan 1 Zoom 20% Enter. you just give a number. and the desk will use this number, look it up in the User min/max columns, compare its place in the User range to the range in the Min/Max columns and then output the correct DMX value.

I'm thinking we are on different pages. I am not talking at all about command line data. I have been speaking strictly on building a fixture from scratch or "new" and entering in the data in the various ranges to create that fixture. So if that is where you are in fact speaking, and it doesn't matter then it's strange that it won't let me "return" off that section if it is somewhat wrong. It gives an error about overlapping ranges. Also if it doesn't matter what I enter but when a command line string is entered once using the console and as you said it looks it up in the User min/max columns and compares its place then I don't know how it will compare properly if the data is wrong. I guess I have just been lucky so far by entering the exact same data in both sections and it has worked in those fixtures. I probably need to just forget this and wait every time until ETC puts the fixture(s) in the library.

Jeff, all the user ranges need to be a unique numbers so you can call it from the command line.

Lets use the iris example again.

This fixture use DMX 0-200 for iris Open to Close, 201 -255 for pulse.

I want to decide how I'm going to use it, open to close is easy it needs to be 0 - 100  so I can copy it to and from another fixture type. Even though this only 100 values Eos will fade the 200 steps because it can do point values if the user range is smaller then DMX range. So if I have 1 pound and need to give that to 2 people each gets .5 of my pound!

Pulse is more tricky, it needs to be unique number so I can type it from the command line. I could make the user number 201-255 so it matches the DMX values. Or I could say its 101-150 so I know if I type any number over 100 it's going to be pulsing. I could even say 101 Thru 200 is pulsing.

If I'd used 101 thru 200 for pulsing this is ok even though it only has 55 DMX step, Eos will just split up the values 101 Thru 200 in 55 Steps, I just need to know if I do Thai I won't see 100 different typing of pulsing!

DMX 0-255 = 256 steps because 0 is the first step. Computers start counting from 0!

If you could go back and edit the posts and use rich formatting that would be great.