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    John728
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Bugs: unexpected submaster intensity behaviors

Bug: I'm running step-based effects off submasters. When I record the live look to a cue, it screws up the effect, it changes some of the intensities.

  • I was at work, and running a step-based effect. When I recorded the live levels to a cue, it changed some of the intensities. Now I am at home and actually have time to post a more detailed explanation.

    <Effect> [1] [Enter]
    • <Type> {StepBased}
    • {Step} [1] [Thru] [2]
    Step 1: channel 1, In time: 0, Dwell:1, Decay: 0, on state: 100, off state: 0
    Step 2: channel 2, In time: 0, Dwell:1, Decay: 0, on state: 100, off state: 0
    [sub][sub]
    • [Sub] [1] [enter]{Mode}{Mode} [Enter] to make it an EffectSub
    (live)
    • 1[thru]2 [Effect] [1] [Enter], runs the effect
    • [Record] [Sub] [1] [Enter][enter]
    [stopeffect][enter]
    [sub]1[enter] then loading it to a virtual fader, pressing the bump button, and bringing the sub up to 50 runs the effect at 50% output
    Bug 1
    1 thru 2 @ 10 [enter] stops the effect running from the sub.
    Bumping the sub again does nothing (I guess "stops" the sub that has an effect that has already been stopped.)
    Bumping the sub again changes the output from 10 to 55. WTF? It should be from 10 to 50, especially since the fader tells me the sub is running at 50.

    Bug 2
    bump sub 1, set to 50
    [record][1] should record the look to cue 1, with the effect running at 50%. It does.
    [go to cue] [out][enter]
    pressing the bump button, and bringing the sub up to 60 runs Effect 1 at 60% output
    1 thru 2 @ 10 [enter]
    bump sub 1 twice at 60
    sub 1 is running from 10 to 64, see bug above
    [record][next]
    Now, Ch. 1 alternates from 10 to 64, and Ch. 2 alternates from 4 to 64. If you look at the cues in blind spreadsheet, Ch. 1 didn't get effect 1 recorded into cue 2.
  • in reply to John728
    Bug 3: Virtual fader level and submaster output level don't always match
    Sub 1 is an effect sub, running a step based effect that sets channels 1-12 from 0 to 100. It's proportional and HTP.
    Sub 6 is an additive sub, with channels 1-12 set to 100.
    If I run sub 1 by itself, the sub level matches the max output level of the channels.
    If I run sub 6 by itself, the sub level matches the output level of the channels.
    If I run both together, the value of sub 1 doesn't match the max output level of the channels unless it is at 0 or 100. For example, if I set sub 6 to 20 and sub 1 to 50, the output of the channels toggles between 20 and 60 instead of 20 and 50 like it should.
  • in reply to John728

    Bug 4: Virtual fader level and submaster output level don't always match
    I have a sub programmed to be Channel 1@Full. If the sub is HTP, the submaster level matches the output level precisely. If the submaster is set to be LTP, the sub level matches the output level when it is at zero and at full, but in between, the output level is can be higher or lower than the sub level by as many as 14 points. I have no other submasters or cues contributing to live output.
    This applies to NIPs as well.

    edited

  • in reply to John728

    Hi John:

    I was able to duplicate this behavior for Bug 1, and will get that submitted.

    For Bug 2, I also duplicated but in my case it took Channel 1 and NOT Channel 2.  I still think this is odd and will get that submitted.

    Looking into the others as I am able.

    Thank you,

  • in reply to John728

    These are all certainly  bugs.  We will get them written up.

  • in reply to saranow
    and...i may have stuck my foot in my mouth with this. More to come. Sorry!

  • Hi, John:


    Sorry for the waffling, but it has been decided that these are NOT bugs.

    The fader for an effect submaster masters between the effect level and the background level.  This means that it will give you 60% of the value between 10 (background level) and 100 (effect level) when set to 60%- hence 64.

    The recording- I agree this is odd and not my favorite thing, but it makes sense.  The sub is HTP, so the console is recording whatever is winning for the HTP level at the time that you hit the record key- in this case only one of the channels.   I'm sorry about this one.

    Finally: any submaster that is LTP uses the fader to master betwen the background level and full- not 0.

    Thank you,

  • in reply to saranow

    "The fader for an effect submaster masters between the effect level and the background level. This means that it will give you 60% of the value between 10 (background level) and 100 (effect level) when set to 60%- hence 64."

    OK but I hope they change this.

    The whole point of HTP is that the channel output is from the record target that provides the highest level - literally, "highest takes precedence", not "multiply two record targets".

    When I'm running an effect, the gaffer will say over the walkie, "make the chase from 10% to 60%", etc. No gaffer will EVER say "make the chase from 60% of the value between the background level and 100%". If the gaffer says he wants the high value of the chase to be 60%, I shouldn't have to do the math based on what the background level is; there's no way I can do that kind of math in my head while running the console. I should be able to just type in [sub]x[at]60, etc.

     

    "The recording- I agree this is odd and not my favorite thing, but it makes sense. The sub is HTP, so the console is recording whatever is winning for the HTP level at the time that you hit the record key- in this case only one of the channels."

    Yeah that makes sense, but it doesn't explain why one of the channels goes from 4 to 64. Whatever is winning for the HTP level should be the effect for one of the channels (10% to 64%), and a manual value (10%) for the other. When I play back the cue without the sub, the channel with the effect recorded into it runs from 4 to 64. According to what you said above, it should run from 10 to 64. (The other channel is played back from the cue at 10%, as expected.)

     

    "Finally: any submaster that is LTP uses the fader to master betwen the background level and full- not 0."

    #4 is definitely a bug. I made sure the background level is 0. If I set the LTP sub with the keypad or double-clicking in the virtual fader, it matches the output level precisely. If I set it by dragging the fader handle, the output level is often different from the sub level (and stays wrong when I adjust it by double-clicking on the fader or using the keypad). Try playing with it for a while and you'll see what I mean. (I don't have a fader wing so I can't test it with physical faders.)

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