Honest thoughts on the Eos

I'm using a brand new EOS on a show right now. I love learning new consoles, but to me, the software is just not mature enough, and in some cases is a step back from an Expression/Express. I hesitate to recommend the Eos to many people right now, because my programming time has increased, not from learning a new board, but it is just sloooooow sometimes.
I gave up trying to use snapshots. 2 simple snapshots, one for a live view and one for a patch view I like take at least 5 seconds to switch between. Even just going from patch to live using the live button can take 2 seconds. I'm a patient person, but not when it comes to waiting on a (new) console.

Also, if I just want to look at my groups using 'group+group', why does it have to be in blind? Is there a reason I can't have a groups list open in live? This also goes for all palettes I would like to open and see. I know traditionally ETC consoles have some functions and views only accessible in blind, but I much prefer the Hog and other platform mentality of Blind being a state of not outputting values in the programmer, not limiting you to only seeing certain windows in blind.

I also feel like Eos has increased the number of button presses that used to be fewer presses. Patch, rather than being one press, is now Displays+Patch, or Tab+#, or a custom snapshot of how I like my view arranged (again, taking way too long to execute my command). Release is now sneak+enter ( which means default sneak time must be 0 to act like release). Clear is basically backspace, which is fine, since Undo clears command line. But undo then also acts like undo, which requires the user to think whether they are about to clear the command line or undo the previous action and bring up the undo window.
To me, all these seem like erroneous steps that could have been simplified had the buttons been there. I know, different console, different methods, but I miss previously simple functions now take more button presses and programming time.

With any group or palette list open on an external touch screen, is there any reason I cant touch or click on the label field and change the text right there?
Similarly, on the CIA, in order to save or shutdown, it is so small to try to touch the correct line of text, so use and external mouse/trackball. Once I click it, then the OK is a giant button that is easily touchable. Some may say I am too nit-picky about good UI design, but it seems like a choice needs to be made. Personally, I hate having to use a mouse just to use a console, and would love to be able to actually use my finger to navigate the items in the CIA.

Fan- I want to fan my intels. The button is there, please make it work. (I'm trying to be patient)

Build Quality- Most of the board seems solid to me, the frame and intensity wheels are great. Having said that, the buttons suck. The keypad buttons are killing me. The poster of the Eos in my office has different buttons on it, that look much more usable. Why were they changed? The ETC rep who came and trained us on the Eos admitted that he thought it was not a smart decision and often has problems with accidental key presses and such. (Was his idea for backlit keys really too cost prohibitive? The glare from the littlelites suck [which can't be dimmed, just removed completely] and backlit keys, or even a hinged touchscreen would have solved this problem. This IS ETC's flagship console, right?)

The direct select style buttons on the side of the touch screens and for Tab, Format, etc. seem terribly crafted to me. They are loose and jiggle around, and have problems sticking and getting depressed too far. Also, to the right of the Scroll Lock, Select, and Page keys, if you put any pressure onto the front bezel, the Form button gets selected.
I gave up using the direct select buttons over the touch screens, but even the bottom portion that is covered makes the screen blurry and difficult to read. The mechanisms to get the direct selects or covers on and off is also poorly constructed. They wiggle around and never sit flush. I know this isn't a huge deal, but considering the price of the console, I would have expected better from ETC.
The black circle on the encoders- is it supposed to be able to spin or not? On some of the encoders it spins, on some it doesn't.

Speaking of encoders, I would love to have a menu option to turn the magnetic resistance off. Its a neat idea, but sometimes its like I have to force the console to change color scroller frames. Also, we've had problems with the wheels not working at all sometimes. I had a bunch of VL2500's, and sometimes on the CYM page, I could adjust C and M, but the encoder for Y would not work at all. I haven't had this happen recently, so hopefully it was fixed in the most recent update.

RFR- Handy tool, but still waiting for the next release. The base station must be unplugged alomst every time we try to use it. The remote has poor range, disconnecting from the base station sitting at the console 40 feet away with no obstructions. Once Ethernet is turned on, we can put it backstage and hopefully be able to use it. Also, I would love to be able to bring up addresses without being in park. Going through channel check also seems like a basic function, but is only available in park, requiring me to go back to the console to unpark everything before the show starts. I know a macro can be created to get around this, but I think it should be built in. Rather than turning a channel out, rolling up to the next channel and pressing Full Full, a channel check should automatically drop the previous fixture's intensity and bring up the next.

I'm sure many of the problems I am having are operator error (me), or they are there, just not apparent to me. I'm really not as angry as my post sounds, but to me its frustrating when more complex, not-used-often features were finished before simple, useful functions (Changing the frequency of errors on the console doesn't do much for me besides providing the best console entertainment other than space invaders on the GrandMA). The future of Eos/Ion platform is exciting (I know the intentions of the audio-in jack, and I can't wait for the day to tell the console what to do) and there are some many things I love about the console I didn't mention (Drawing effects by touch=cool). At this time, I think more development needs to take place before I can recommend the Eos to someone making a purchase or using one on a show. I look forward to other's thoughts and answers.

-Kirk Fitzgerald 

Parents
  • My god kirk....could you please stop rummaging around in my head please.....   I am almost exactly of the same opinion of the ion as you. 

     I have 2 things else to note about this whole discussion for now.

     1.  The congo comparison.  There has been no mention of the other have the design the the Eos (Ion) was based on.  I got to experience the Joy of the congo for about 9 months before the sofware died and managment decided to scrap it and go with the ion.  Kirk if you ever have a chace to use the Congo one of my favorite things about the desk was the GUI.  It was a about joy to set up the displays to be able to see the information you want to see.  The setup for the collapsable tree was actually USEFUL.  You could get to any part of the system though that tree.   Granted that the tree for the ion has come a long way since v 1.2 (were I started using it)  but have progressed the congo that far to haveing this tree so sparse on the Ion is a huge step back in my mind.  I still love and miss my congo so maybe I am a bit biased, but from my standpoint right now, I feel I'm in the same situation I was about 9 months ago.  I have a desk that is awsome on paper but is still 6 months behind in it's software development.  I'm in tech week right now and I've already go a page of note just for the Ion. 

    2.  The World of warcraft comparsion.  Wierd right?  but hear me out on this one.  I'm a huge computer nerd.  I feel that the 2 business are about in the same line of work and level of professionalism.  The way I figure it, is that 10 million ppl play warcraft for 15 bucks a month.  In our industry we have more like 15000  clients paying about 10,000 bucks for desks like the ion.    So all in all about the same money is being thrown around.  Why then is Blizzard about to put out patches every 2 weeks, addressing critical issues across thousands of different platforms.(No 2 computers are alike), but ETC can't put out an update more then every 6 weeks for 2 platforms.  that are almost identical.  There is something here I really don't get.

    One final note...I just got done with final dress for our christmas show. (I just applied patch 1.4.2 for this show)  I'm finding amazing new bugs in the system with this patch and I'm started to have serious concerns  to the point where I'm considering going back to 1.4.1.  Presets and palletes are bugging out more and more as I program deeper into the show. 

    I really hope 1.4.2 is not a step back.  With this patch I really start to wonder.

     

Reply
  • My god kirk....could you please stop rummaging around in my head please.....   I am almost exactly of the same opinion of the ion as you. 

     I have 2 things else to note about this whole discussion for now.

     1.  The congo comparison.  There has been no mention of the other have the design the the Eos (Ion) was based on.  I got to experience the Joy of the congo for about 9 months before the sofware died and managment decided to scrap it and go with the ion.  Kirk if you ever have a chace to use the Congo one of my favorite things about the desk was the GUI.  It was a about joy to set up the displays to be able to see the information you want to see.  The setup for the collapsable tree was actually USEFUL.  You could get to any part of the system though that tree.   Granted that the tree for the ion has come a long way since v 1.2 (were I started using it)  but have progressed the congo that far to haveing this tree so sparse on the Ion is a huge step back in my mind.  I still love and miss my congo so maybe I am a bit biased, but from my standpoint right now, I feel I'm in the same situation I was about 9 months ago.  I have a desk that is awsome on paper but is still 6 months behind in it's software development.  I'm in tech week right now and I've already go a page of note just for the Ion. 

    2.  The World of warcraft comparsion.  Wierd right?  but hear me out on this one.  I'm a huge computer nerd.  I feel that the 2 business are about in the same line of work and level of professionalism.  The way I figure it, is that 10 million ppl play warcraft for 15 bucks a month.  In our industry we have more like 15000  clients paying about 10,000 bucks for desks like the ion.    So all in all about the same money is being thrown around.  Why then is Blizzard about to put out patches every 2 weeks, addressing critical issues across thousands of different platforms.(No 2 computers are alike), but ETC can't put out an update more then every 6 weeks for 2 platforms.  that are almost identical.  There is something here I really don't get.

    One final note...I just got done with final dress for our christmas show. (I just applied patch 1.4.2 for this show)  I'm finding amazing new bugs in the system with this patch and I'm started to have serious concerns  to the point where I'm considering going back to 1.4.1.  Presets and palletes are bugging out more and more as I program deeper into the show. 

    I really hope 1.4.2 is not a step back.  With this patch I really start to wonder.

     

Children
  • I'd like to update everyone on my thoughts again, this time after going through an entire tech process of programming. This time, my post will be a little more positive, I promise!

    First let me say, I'm glad I'm programming on the Eos rather than the Expression. It will be hard going back to programming movers on that board in another one of our theaters.

    A few problems I have with the board, programming wise:

    Update: I completely understand the concept of updating, and that now choices must be made of updating the referenced palettes, or breaking the cue away from the palette and making it have it's own values. But, the UI for update sucks! Bad! First, to the end user, the 3 options presented have very poor word choices and will confuse most users. Update All, Make Absolute, and Break Nested will have little meaning to most users. Secondly, to the left of this, where every channel and parameter are listed that are being updated, is horrible. It means very little to me. I can see a couple channels, then the rest disappear off into space to the right. The text is horribly tiny making it very difficult to read (and I have perfect vision). I can see that some parameters might be using a preset or palette. Thats about all. Nothing tells me what is going to happen once I update, or what exactly is going to be updated. There is no way for me to choose which palettes I would like to update and which I would like to give a hard value to in a cue.

    For inspiration, I would suggest checking out the Hog way of doing this, and 'borrowing' some ideas. A very pleasant window comes up, showing the exact palettes being referenced, and by touching any or all I want to, a little check box will appear next to it, letting me know what exactly will be updated.

    I know the fixture builder functionality is being worked on, but right now, not being able to download profiles that are not on the desk is killing me. I have an LED drop that doesn't have a profile, and ETC hasn't provided a way for users to download any obscure profiles, even if they are made by other users. I attempted to make one but gave up. So right now, I have a great Show LED curtain that is unusable. I really hope this is fixed by March, when I have to program a ballet on the Eos, and I'm sure they will want to use the curtain. 

    On that note, some profiles I am seeing missing features. On the Mac 700 profile, I can't find a way to do a gobo shake. I know it's in the DMX Map for the fixture, but am I missing this somewhere in the encoder pages?

    I wish I could scroll up and down my cue list when in Live, and not have to switch to blind. Goes back to my original post about the point of having some windows that you can only view in blind. It would be less annoying if there wasn't such a horrible lag time switching between live and blind. 

    I still don't like not having a dedicated release button. I know macros can be made, the sneak time can be set back and forth between 0 and an actual sneak time, but I miss release. R.I.P.

    I know most of my previous complaints are software related and will eventually be fixed or addressed, but I am still disappointed of the hardware on the Eos. I understand the Ion should be a lower cost, more average market board, but the Eos is the flagship console. Why skimp out and put a really crappy keypad and direct select style buttons on it? I know all keys are different and take getting used to, but of every single lighting console and even computer keyboards, the Eos has the worst keys and most difficult keypad to accurately use, by far. I really wonder what kind of development went into the research of physical keypads and accurate typing. Its disappointing because the press photos and even the manual has drawings of keys that look much more tactile and less prone to mis-typing. I wish I could program as quickly and error free as I can on any other console. This, along with pretty bad build quality of some components make me question the longevity of the desk hardware.

    Lastly, I am very tired of the lag on the console. Switching windows, live to blind, or even just typing commands, the console would sometimes take a very noticeable time to respond, even a few seconds sometimes. 

    I promised to be positive, so here I go:

    There are a few things I LOVE LOVE LOVE! Copy to, and Recall From. Wow. These buttons rock. One command I found myself using: Group 30 Mac 700's + Beam + Color + Recall From + USC Mac 700 + Cue 241 + Enter.

    These two buttons saved me hours of programming. I also liked using the Copy To button. I think the functionality of it should be expanded though: Group 11 SR High X + Copy To + Cues + 89 + Thru + 92 + Enter. This would help to do mass updates of intensity, for instance. I know tracking takes care of this, but I purposely turned tracking off, as I was programming for a designer who had not used tracking and had no intention of letting me update and record cues appropriately to do what they wanted. I frequently used the Q Only/Track button to record a cue in track mode when I was using intels, and I like this functionality. I think, though, being able to copy values to multiple cues at one time could be very beneficial to some users.

    The [Home] button is great, though I think the name could confuse some users who think of 'Home' as 'Global Fixture Reset'.

    I like being able to touch channels on an external touch screen. I found myself doing this and using the group direct selects on the touch screens (I gave up on the direct select face panels) rather than keying in things on the difficult to use keypad.

    The select buttons are a-a-amazing. [Selective Active] + [Out] makes for very quick blackouts. [Select Active] - [Group] + [-%] is also amazingly powerful when the designer says "I want everything but the Intels and US row of backlight to drop 10%".

    Mark works fantastic! I did have a few cues where I wanted the intels to hot move, and tried to follow the directions in the manual to allow this to happen, but I couldn't get it work. I gave up and put them at 1% in the first cue. Small price to pay to have the console auto mark everything else for me. 

    The make manual softkey is also great!

    On that note, I also like the Move To softkey, although I would like to be able to use it with groups. Right now, I have to re-record the group to a different number to move it. One thing that would be helpful to me, but potentially confusing to other users, would be the ability to move my groups around on my direct selects, while maintaining the group number. For instance, many dance lighting designers have a very specific grouping method. For instance, group 1 is High X Cool, Group 11 is High X Cool SL, and group 12 is high X Cool SR. This is all fine and dandy, except I end up with 3 full screen pages of groups, but only the first couple of the 20 on the row are used. If I could maintain the group number, while ogranizing the groups in a way that works for me, the programmer, to see them all on one page, would be fantastic.

    I think that about covers all I can think of. Many of my frustrations with the console faded away once I started to find exciting ways to use the syntax. I would still be programming the Expression for another few days trying to update cues, mark the movers, and fix hot scrolls. I appreciate the work ETC is putting into the console.

    --Kirk "I'm starting to like it" Fitzgerald
     

  • Regarding the Money -- You need to take a closer look at the math. We will be lucky to sell 15,000 total Ions over the next 8 years. They also carry a higher Cost-of-goods-sold than an online game.  The money in the two industries is VERY different.

    Now - I agree that I would like to see a higher output of software and see the platform progress farther. We are looking at ways to do that. But the lighting desk market is Tiny in comparison to any consumer industry.

     

    Back to lurking mode.

  • sorry lad

    "I know tracking takes care of this, but I purposely turned tracking off, as I was programming for a designer who had not used tracking and had no intention of letting me update and record cues appropriately to do what they wanted."

    Like many of us; you have a LD problem, not a lightboard problem. If you buy a Ferrari, you don't want to lock it in reverse... If anything; Eos is a tracking console. Use it as it's supposed to, and it is maybe the very best.

    t.

     

  • kirkfitz:

    On that note, some profiles I am seeing missing features. On the Mac 700 profile, I can't find a way to do a gobo shake. I know it's in the DMX Map for the fixture, but am I missing this somewhere in the encoder pages?

    After playing with the Eos Offline encoders for my Roboscan 918s, I think you need to make sure that Gobo wheel 2 is in "Scan+" mode, then the command line shows the correct DMX values are being sent for Gobo shake. BTW, thanks for asking the question because it helped me learn something new about the Fixture editor, namely I can build my own Gobo wheels.

  • Okay. Picking myself off the floor now. Making comparisions of a lighting console user base against the 11 million people who play WoW and expecting the income to be the same to the manufacturer is pretty funny. Dang fine economics there ;-)

    Yeah come on you ETC guys, you make $55mil off of Ion console sales alone in a single month right?? Jeez, slackers ;-)



    [edited by: jabadger at 8:28 PM (GMT -6) on Fri, Nov 28 2008] [edited by: jabadger at 8:28 PM (GMT -6) on Fri, Nov 28 2008]
  • Kirk, Regarding wondering what is going to be updated, take the wonder out of it and just specify what you want to be updated by putting filters before the update command. If just looking at the output screen isn't enough then going into flexi or using the selective updating. I disagree that the Update Language would be confusing to ops/programmers who use the console more than a fleeting glance. The Update language is fine once a programmer understands the rest of the desk. This is a new desk with it's own syntax.

    Re: scrolling down in the live playback screen to see other cues. While in Live, [Cue][Enter] then [Next] or [Last] a bunch of times to advance down or up.

    Re: Profiles. ETC will be more than accomodating (unless you're saying you've tried and haven't been able to) at churning out profiles if you would like one built. If time is a factor, after a few ten's of minutes playing with the profile editor, it's not too hard to figure out as long as one remembers that there are 255 steps and what a range means.

    I've asked for group copying too, and I've been told it's on the list.

    I feel your pain on programming moving lights on an Expression. No one should ever have to endure that.

    Oh, and I think the Maxxyz has the absolute worst numerical keypad of any console I've used ;-)



    [edited by: jabadger at 8:28 PM (GMT -6) on Fri, Nov 28 2008] [edited by: jabadger at 8:23 PM (GMT -6) on Fri, Nov 28 2008]
  • kirkfitz:

    These two buttons saved me hours of programming. I also liked using the Copy To button. I think the functionality of it should be expanded though: Group 11 SR High X + Copy To + Cues + 89 + Thru + 92 + Enter. This would help to do mass updates of intensity...

    Another way to do this would be [group 11 record cue 89 > 92 enter]  If you enter a chan selection, group, or any other selective record command, it will record the values for the selected chans and will leave the rest of the cue unaffected.

    Cheers  

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