Thru Thru

I mostly work in the active channels flexi-state. I have to agree that I do not care for the way thru and thru thru work.  Thru should grab all channels in the range whether they are active or not. Thru Thru should be Thru + Select Active or like the Thru On button on the Strand 550 series. Just my oinion...

Bunny

Ryan,

We here at the San Francisco Opera agree with you.  We're baffled why Thru Thru = Thru, and Thru =  in Strand speak(our former console) Thru On, which as you know allows one to capture a range of Active Channels.  We understand how the current commands work and we're adapting, but bottom line, it's simply not logical.  Thru means thru!  I vote to swap the Thru and the Thru Thru commands in 1.8.

Michael Anderson

SF Opera Asst. Master Electrician

Forgive my misunderstanding but i didn't think that active channels were used in the thru thru conundrum. 

If i only want to view the channels used in cues 1 thru 10, i could type [Group Cue 1 thru 10 Flexi-view channels]. This, for example gives me, channels 101, 103 & 105 on my screen- Its a very dark show. 

Previously, If i then wanted to select 101 thru 105, as they are the only channels in the show, i would have problems because if i typed 101 thru 105 i would get 101, 102, 103, 104, 105. 

So the thru button in 1.7 (as i understand it) is based on what you see on your screen, not necessarily whats active. so 101 thru 105 gives me 101, 103 ,105

If i want all the channels between 101 and 105 i can use thru thru. 

This was something i think was missing from the 500 series. 

I like it this way (v1.7) as it gives me both options, plus i can throw in the select active command too. 

Sorry if i've misunderstood

I am happy with the change because now it works like it did on the ETC Obsession 600 that I was programming before. The logic is sensible and the keystrokes are concise in terms of number and location. If I am working in a flexi-state it is more likely that I don't want to grab channels that are not already used, active, or patched. To me it makes more sense to add an extra keystroke to make that action happen.

I gotta say that I'm not a fan of [thru] only effecting certain channels depending on what flexi mode one is in. I think [thru] is a basic command that should have absolute behavior. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a "magical thru" effecting only the current flexi view, and I think that [thru] [thru] is the more appropriate syntax.

-M

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if thru is tab/flexi dependent, and if an RVI and console are in different flexi states, then a designer calling out a range of channels might get an unexpected result.

Could there be a thru behavior desk setting, which would include most of the flexi states plus a "current tab" option?

-Josh

I just programmed my first show on 1.7.  The designer was in the house on a client in Patched Channels Flexi.  I, as the same user was in Active Channels Flexi. Chs 52 + 53 were at 50%.  She asked for 51 thru 55 at full and I had it executed nearly before she had finished the words, as usual.  Then she repeated it, and I retyped then.  Just when I was thinking, "Didn't she just ask for those channels?" I heard her ask a third time, this time slightly perturbed.  I then looked up at the screen to see that I had only been actually controlling the two channels that were already active.

I type way too fast to look up at the screen to determine whether I should be using Thru or Thru Thru.  So my vote would be that Thru not be Flexi sensitive.  I guess until then Active Flexi is not for me during cueing.

This was the first time I had ever spent much time in Active Flexi and was starting to dig it until that happened.  It was helpful in relating current levels to the designer who was having trouble paging her own channel screen.  I'd be interested hearing peoples' thought on using Active Flexi in general.  Am I the last to find it not really useful for programming someone elses show?     

Well in my last 2 years running an Eos I have found Active Flexi very useful.  Mostly because as you said if your not in Flexi Active you end up doing a whole lot of paging, which I prefer to do as little as possible (kinda a less is more thing).  Like you too I also type to fast to look up and see which screen is selected (patched or Flexi Active).  And I too ran into the thru change during programming the latest show.  The designer was not to happy, after he had to ask 3 times because I was in the Active not Patched screen.  We just need to watch what screen is selected more closely I guess.

I think thru should not be Flexi sensitive.  I like the (new thru) action, but i feel it should be thru thru that selects only whats active if we keep this feature.  I feel Thru is a basic programming tool and should remain that way in my head anyway.

Have fun

Am I the only one who does not have to look at the keys in order to type fast?

I do understand the issue with different flexi displays chosen by different users and I figured that was the reason that thru operated the way it did originally. I have become diligent about knowing what flexi-mode the RVIs are operating in. When "mirror" mode arrives on the scene a lot of designers I work with will be very happy.

In my experience I find that if a designer wants 1 thru 10 he will ask for them and if the designer wants just the channels in that range he ask for them only. I think "thru thru" could be effective if it selected the active channels and not all. I think the opposite of how it currently works makes more sense to the way I communicate to my designers. Then I do not have to ask what he really wants....

I would vote (if I really had one!) to make "thru Thru" select active and "Thru" select the whole range....

Peace, Ed

Fullerton College Theater Operations

Just to be clear Thru Thru is not a short cut to Select Active, it is a way to select channels in your current flexi when you are using Show or View Channels for example.

Ryan and Michael can I asked which display you used on the 500 series was it compact, display group?

This feature has been added for large rep houses that have a very large number of patched channels but for each production they will only use a small number of these channels. I used to work in a large rep house that was on the 500 series and changed to Eos platform in September 2007 in the two larger venues. For us it was a problem that Thru selected channels outside of our flexi as this could sometimes select 100 channels that aren’t in our Show Channels flexi. On the Strand we would use it’s display group which is like the Eos view channels flexi and this wouldn’t select channels outside of the display.

I have to say that I no longer work in a rep house and I’m now a freelance programmer who can happily programme using patched channels so I haven’t needed to use Thru Thru. Crispy is working in a large rep house and seems to be happy with the feature, anyone from the National Theatre want to support Crispy? 

Also to say I never use Active channels as I find channels jumping around my display far more of a problem then paging down. This does seem to be a problem for people that rely on Active Channels though but Ryan and Michael that work in a rep house and are used to 500 series I thought you would have been waiting for this?

I just finished designing in a small rep house.  Viewing patched flexi was really useful, as I could hide all those channels that weren't in my I show.  Having a fixed view of the channels is important to me; after a couple hours of cueing, I tend to learn channels on the screen by geography as much as number, and my eye will often go straight to the level number.

There were also a handful of rep system lights that were obstructed by my set, so I also deleted those from patch so they would be off the screen and so I wouldn't accidently cue them in.  In this case having Thru apply to the flexi state is quite useful, as there are gaps in what otherwise would be a continuously channeled system.

On the other hand, I want my programmer to be able to use whatever view makes sense to him or her, especially is there's a tab with a view for dealing with movers, which is why I feel Thru behavior should be a desk setting.

-Josh

Hi Guys.  Have been watching this thread to see if there is a consensus.   We can swap the behavior, so that thru thru collects within the flexi channel state.  If we do this, the change needs to happen in 1.9.  So, anyone with opinions about this needs to weigh in soon.

We have no plans to make this a desk setting.  In general terms, we only do desk settings when a reasonable agreement about behavior can not be reached. It seems that an agreement about this should be achievable.    Our approach is that desk settings are fine when it comes to display preferences and such, but should be avoided whenever possible when it comes to the actual behavior of the desk.  The more desk settings that you have, the more trouble other programmers have when picking up a show, and the more designers have to talk to you before you can start programming about how the desk should be configured.     All of that takes time that no one has.    

So, lets see if we can reach an agreement?  It would be great if those of you who were involved in the initial discussion about this could provide input.

Thanks much!

a

[thru] captures all channels within a selected range

[thru][thru] captures all displayed channels within a selected range

This seems to make the most sense to the most people. I can see the logic and I can make it work for me.

When programming we have patched our entire large repertory rig for ease of the designer being able to choose to use basic rep channels as well as show specifically rigged units quickly.  We tend therefore to programme in Show Channel Flexi which grows as we move through the production process and currently masks out the rest of the rig.  Because we are dealing with a rep rig with channel numbers that are numbered according to their position rather than show use, they can jump about out of sequence numerically.  For us having Thru, Next and Last follow flexi is extremely useful.  If it's a huge pain for everyone else except for large rep and the desicion was to swap the function of thru to thru thru, I guess we could live with it ..... 

xx