Effects on sub masters

If you record the intensity value in the submaster with other values they will all be played back when you use the submaster.  If you only want the submaster to change color make sure that color is the only attribute recorded in the submaster.   I use selective storing [chan 1 thru 5 color record sub 1] to specify what I want recorded in a target.  

The intensity master setting means that the handle of the sub only changes the intensity values when you bring it up and down.  The non-intensity values change when you first move the sub or when you bump the sub.  

Busking on the Ion/Eos is all about being very selective with what data you record into your subs.  If there is data in a sub you don't want in it you can also go into blind, select the channels and parameters you want to remove and hit @enter.  [chan 1 thru 5 intensity, beam, @ enter]  This would remover the intensity and beam information for channels 1 thru 5 in whichever sub you were looking at in blind.

Well that's a load of whatsit then.

I accept that the submasters move the non intensity parameters - it says that in the manual. I didn't see anything at all about filtering out the parameters you don't want - is that in the manual at all???

BUT it doesn't make any sense. as I said before setting a sub-master as an intensity master SHOULD NOT MEAN that it effects the non intensity paramaters at all - ever. It's not an intensity master if it does!!!!

if I could see a use for the current behaviour it would be a different matter - but I just can't.

Ok ETC what about changing this behaviour to something more sensible?

Andy

I believe there is some confusion about what the [fader] modes are and why they exist.  The difference between proportional and intensity master is that the proportional mode leaves the non-intensity parameters on the fader handle. As you fade the handle up or down the intensities and all the other attributes fade with the handle.  Intensity masters handles only move the intensity values with the handle.  The non-intensity parameters snap to their position as soon as you move the handle.  This gives you the ability to have different looks different subs and the non-intensity parameters will not fade back to home when you pull the handle back down.  

I think what you are looking for would be an intensity only sub.  This does not exist as a sub type.  If you only want intensity information on a sub then only store the intensity information in the sub.  Subs are multi-use and will hold any kind of attribute data you store in them. 

There are several ways to decide what gets recorded in a target(sub, cue, preset) 

use record only (this will only store manual [red] values in the target        

selective record (specify channels and parameters you want to record)

build the subs in blind where only the parameters you change are in the target

I would suggest taking a look at the Ion training videos that ETC has available on their website.  

I hope this helps you out

I believe there is some confusion about what the [fader] modes are and why they exist.  The difference between proportional and intensity master is that the proportional mode leaves the non-intensity parameters on the fader handle. As you fade the handle up or down the intensities and all the other attributes fade with the handle.  Intensity masters handles only move the intensity values with the handle.  The non-intensity parameters snap to their position as soon as you move the handle.  This gives you the ability to have different looks different subs and the non-intensity parameters will not fade back to home when you pull the handle back down.  

I think what you are looking for would be an intensity only sub.  This does not exist as a sub type.  If you only want intensity information on a sub then only store the intensity information in the sub.  Subs are multi-use and will hold any kind of attribute data you store in them. 

There are several ways to decide what gets recorded in a target(sub, cue, preset) 

use record only (this will only store manual [red] values in the target        

selective record (specify channels and parameters you want to record)

build the subs in blind where only the parameters you change are in the target

I would suggest taking a look at the Ion training videos that ETC has available on their website.  

I hope this helps you out

No, there is no confusion. I can see that the subs do what the manual says that they do.

What I am, indeed, looking for is an intensity only submaster that does what it's name suggests it should do - effect intensities only. I agree that it does not exist and I say that it should exist.

There are (it seems) various work-arounds to solve my problem but they all involve quite a lot of extra programming and thought on the oart of the programmer rather than just setting the sub-master to intensities only which would solve all my problems!

I can't - I'm sorry - see any reason at all why I would want (to use my original example) my red stage sub master to stop an effect running on another sub master, the practical effect of the current system.

Looking at the Ion training videos might be a "solution" of a sort but not when you are faced with two hours to programme a show involving moving lights as I was on Thursday. Putting the instructions to use selective record (as you call it) or building the subs in blind as you also call it in the written manual is pretty important too. And, if they are in the manual somewhere, they aren't either under sub masters or effects!

The show is done and gone so I wasn't looking for instant help (it might have been useful on Thursday but we weren't talking then!) thanks.

Hopefully someone from ETC will give this some thought on Monday.

Andy

I don't think that 

1thru 5 @ Full

Record Only

Sub 5

Is a work around or a lot of extra programming.

As for the 2nd sub stopping the effect.

What if you have a sub build that is a big button with position/color/beam/intensity data in it that you want to be able to bump to at any moment and have it stop all your effects?

I'm not trying to piss you off its just there has been a lot of thought and work into where the software is now.  The result you are looking for is in the console and easy to program.  

If they make an intensity only version of the sub then why not a color version, or a beam version.  While they are at it why stop there.  How about a zoom sub. pan sub? gobo sub.   The existing system allows you to build any of those simply by selecting what data you record into the submaster.  The two fader modes (proportional and Intensity Master) allow you to choose how you want the fader handle to play the recorded information back.  

If I want to I can make a zoom sub with proportional fader mode and it will scale the zoom of all the channels recorded in it on the handle without changing any other attribute.

With respect, but I think it is a work around when you have to think each and every time you record a sub (or re-record it) whether it should be record, record-only, edit it in blind or whatever.

Subs, at least how we use them here in the UK, are usually a quick a dirty way of programming/running a show and it would undoubtably have been quicker for me to set all the subs that I didn't want to effect effects to intensity only and just hit record. (If that makes sense!).

The reason why I want that to happen is that I most commonly want an effect to run and then fade it up - hence my need to have one sub-master controlling the intensity of the movers and several controlling which effect is actually running. That way I have the option of fading from one effect to another or having an effect start and then fading it up.

I don't generally want to do that with the non intensity parameters so there would be no point whatsoever in having -as you put it- a colour version, etc etc.Nor, i suspect, does any other programmer/designer.

Just because something can be done doesn't mean it has to be and I think this is a case of it can be done so it has been!

And - I reiterate - I probably wouldn't have raised the issue had the manual told me what to do to!!!!

Andy

"hence my need to have one sub-master controlling the intensity of the movers and several controlling which effect is actually running"

You can do this now by making an adjacent sub an inhibit master for intensity.  I do this anyway so as to do a quick grab out of the ML's.

And I understand that some concepts are different on the other side of the pond, but submasters seemingly are the same everywhere, manual groups of WHATEVER you record into it.  At least now (with Eos/Ion as compared to Expression) it's a lot easier to not grab stuff, but you have to know the syntax  and make it work for you and that too is the same on every desk.

SB

Well assuming that making it an inhibit master means that it doesn't effect Non intensity parameters then I guess that's the best work around yet - I'm not in front the console today so am unable to check this.

As regards your last paragraph, that's not really true. Strand (who had by far and away the lions share of the market over here) worked in a very different manner.

Alas they blew it when they went bust.

Andy

sounds like you wana make them playbacks and not sub masters.