Expression Diagnostic Menu

I was awaiting someone from ETC to chime in....

To my knowledge, there is no built in access to any kind of diagnostics or to the firmware.

The console series (Expression/Insight/Express) did not have hard drives.  The OS booted from 3.5" floppy when installed and the OS then ran in bios. 

What exactly do you need to do, and can I assume trouble shoot a problem ?.

Steve B.

just picked up a console used and wanted to run whatever tests built in I could to ensure it's in good working condition. I'm surprised there isn't a function available to do this.  What's the "reserved" #12 in the setup then believe it's option's menu?  

There must be a way for it to run a system's check?  no? 

Reserved 12 goes nowhere and does nothing - it's a placeholder in case we needed to add something to the menu.

It turns out that we didn't need to.

how about a diagnostic function.. that would be convenient to add in there, wouldnt it?  Lock it out similar to the CEM module's login?

Console is long out of manufacture, so don't plan on it.

SB

so how about making the diagnostic tool downloadable for people to use since the console is too old, out of production, and no longer supported?  not an unreasonable request by any means.

 I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's unsupported.  ETC still supports L86 dimmer racks which they actually never made - they just acquired the company that made them before they came out with the sensor rack. 

Being that the console is out of production, I doubt that any more R&D dollars are going to be spent on getting a diagnostic tool out to the end users.  As Mike said before, there's really not that much to the console that you couldn't spend about 10 minutes and do a pretty full diagnostic yourself.

who said they needed to create a diagnostic tool?  It already exists... simply load it in the download section of the website so console owners can make make their own floppy disks with the tool on it and check their units for correct operation...

again... not much to ask.

b_valkyrie said:

so how about making the diagnostic tool downloadable for people to use since the console is too old, out of production, and no longer supported?  not an unreasonable request by any means.

 

The console is still supported, but your request was to add in a diagnostic tool, into the operating system software, for a console that is no longer manufactured.  I would suspect that this is not going to happen and quite frankly ETC tech has other things to do besides adding software to the OS to a 20 year old computer.

Your request to make the diagnostic tools available as a separate piece of software makes sense.

SB

Actually my initial request was NOT to "add" a diagnostic tool, but instead to simply access the prexeisting tool.   As was demonstrated in this topic, the tool does exist however it's not installed resident on the console and instead needs to be loaded separately... so then again I ask politely if this diagnotsic tool can be made available for download for all of us Expression owners who want to perform periodic routine checks on our units.

sound of crickets chirping from ETC as diagnostic tool does not yet appear in download section of site.

Hi there -

We are considering your request. We cannot simply post a 15-year-old diagnostic software tool on our web site since it was never designed for use by anyone other than manufacturing and repairs techs. There's no documentation, no instruction sheet, and very little user interface on it and we need to make sure that all that is in order before we post something like that. Please stay tuned...

In the mean time, here are some old-school tricks to use to test your console:

1) Use the HELP key. I know it sounds a bit odd. but before the diagnositc tool existed we used the HELP key to test that all the keys were working. Pressing HELP and any other key should provide a message - if the message appears and it's the right one for that key, then the key is working.

2) Use the Submaster List view and the playback areas on screen to test the faders. You should see the % level of each fader as you move them. For the Grand Master, you can see its level on screen as well. All faders should fade smoothly from 0-100, as I expect you know.

3)  Test the quality of the keys using the triple-hit method. Press each key three times quickly in rapid succession. You''ll quickly get a feel for how good keys react and sound. When/if you hit one that's marginal, it will feel "softer" or "deader" and will sound dead as well - not CLICK-CLICK-CLICK rather CLACK-CLACK-CLACK as you go.

4) Testing outputs/Inputs is going to require other gear than the facepanel diagnostic we may provide - a DMX Tester for the DMX outputs and input, MIDI equipment for MIDI stuff. I cannot remember if the diagnostic tool has any loopback tests in it at all, in which case you would only need cables. We will have to wait for Tech Service to provide that information once they look into the feasibility of letting the tool loose into the wild.

Thanks much -

Sarah

Sarah,

This is a little off topic, but does the sales department still sell the Expression 3 manual?

Thnx!!!!

-Lightingguy1 

Hi there -

Contact tech support or customer service. If we have any, I'm sure we'd be happy to sell one. Or, it is available free on the Web site as a PDF download as well.

Thanks -

Sarah

After spending a bit of time with the diagnostic tool it seems like it is far from the best thing to make available to the public.  Please follow me on this.  I was thinking on Sunday that this would be ok to post but I hadn't looked at it in over 10 years.

There is a semi-useful facepanel test that allows you to check and see if buttons and faders are working.  There is also a DRAM and SRAM test but they can erase your OS as well.  There are no instructions, no guides or menus, you have to know how to run it and it really does not diagnose much.  If you wanted to check CPU temps, bus speed, clocking, parallel port functions, disk drive access, etc, there just isn't anything in the diag disk.

I get the question from time to time stating that there must be a diag box at ETC for each piece of gear that we hook up to that tells us what's wrong with stuff.  Truth is, no, we just have a really smart repair department and a lot of good folks on the phone.  Maybe it would be cheaper to do this in the products, and we have added more stuff ito the newer products over time, but some of the older gear just doesn't have that level built in.

I hope you understand,

David

There is a quick easy way to test to see if your console is running in good shape.  This is a test repairs does. 

1) Create a Macro with the following commands:

<Live> <Blind> <Patch> <Setup> <M_>

The <M_> is the macro number your creating.  This macro will switch displays on the desk and run continuously until you hit M*. 

2) Create a subroutine of a couple of cues. 

3) Run the subroutine on a playback, then run the macro.

What this does is put a heavy load on the desk.  You will know pretty quickly if the desk is in good working order.  I usually run this test for about 10 minutes. 

Hope this helps

P-

Actually I don't entirely understand...    The console itself isn't exactly the easiest to use so I don't think any of us would expect the diagnostic tool to be either.

I'm sure you have a PDF with notes or commands on how to use it, or there would be someone here willing to create one if you dont already (though I doubt that one does not exist)....   Why not make it available for download, bundle it in a zip file with the instructions and if you are really concerned ask for the console serial # to log when people download it.

I dont think anyone is questioning the ability or the competency of the ETC support department - they've been fantastic (at least in my experience) however given the frequency that some of us use this console and the many many odd hours we work having the diagnostic tool handy would be an asset in operation and troubleshooting.  I can think of five specific occasions in the last 4 months alone that having that tool at my disposal would have ended more than one disagreement over hardware failure vs human error (and it's always human error)

I'm sure there is some way you can make this available for those that need it and still keep it out of the hands of those that shouldnt use it.

Actually I don't entirely understand...    The console itself isn't exactly the easiest to use so I don't think any of us would expect the diagnostic tool to be either.

I'm sure you have a PDF with notes or commands on how to use it, or there would be someone here willing to create one if you dont already (though I doubt that one does not exist)....   Why not make it available for download, bundle it in a zip file with the instructions and if you are really concerned ask for the console serial # to log when people download it.

I dont think anyone is questioning the ability or the competency of the ETC support department - they've been fantastic (at least in my experience) however given the frequency that some of us use this console and the many many odd hours we work having the diagnostic tool handy would be an asset in operation and troubleshooting.  I can think of five specific occasions in the last 4 months alone that having that tool at my disposal would have ended more than one disagreement over hardware failure vs human error (and it's always human error)

I'm sure there is some way you can make this available for those that need it and still keep it out of the hands of those that shouldnt use it.

"I'm sure there is some way you can make this available for those that need it and still keep it out of the hands of those that shouldnt use it."

It seems to me that they have already done so by limiting it's distribution to those properly trained in it's operation and use: Factory Trained Technicians.

How much time and resource should ETC commit to writing/compiling documentation for a piece of software that was never intended for public release?  I, for one, would much rather they continue to focus their energies on new product development; software and hardware.  We all know ETC will continue to service and support their products to an extent that very few other manufacturers are even willing to consider; should your console ever actually develop a problem I have no doubt you will be well taken care of.

Best,

John

(Who doesn't work for, or speak for, ETC (nor anyone but himself); but is a longtime, very satisfied, user.)

how much time?  none... they have already stated it exists and can simply be placed for download.  And I disagree with you 100%.  It is unfair to expect an owner of an unsupported 10 year old console well out of warranty to have no way to confirm if their unit works correctly or does not without taking it in for service every time.  That's ludicrous.  A basic systems check should be free.

b_valkyrie said:

It is unfair to expect an owner of an unsupported 10 year old console well out of warranty to have no way to confirm if their unit works correctly or does not without taking it in for service every time.

It is rather fair to expect that. It is a 10 year old product that is also out of warranty (and when you say unsupported I'm not sure what you entirely mean). I highly doubt that if you called ETC Tech Support and asked a question about an Expression, they would deny you any kind of help and say they don't support the product anymore. ETC is probably the ONLY company that I can say I feel 100% comfortable calling and receiving quality help on legacy equipment.

b_valkyrie said:

A basic systems check should be free.

A basic systems check is free, did you read the earlier posts with suggestions on how to perfom you own basic systems check?
What are you looking to test anyway that you can't by doing what has been described in the previous posts?

I think at this point what I'm reading is whining.  Dave North, one of the senior and most experienced engineers at ETC has pretty much indicated - nicely, that the diagnostic software is not going to be released to the public, for a lot of good reasons, including the fact that it was never intended for non-ETC technicians to use and that there's the potential for screwing up your console in such a manner that it would take ETC Tech Support longer to tell you how to fix then it's worth. 

And as BTW, most of us who've been in the business as long as we have, have learned to listen when "DNorth" speaks, sort of like EF Hutton.  I'd take the advice.

Note that I have followed the ETC forum since the beginning and this is the only request I've ever seen to use any kind of diagnostic on a discontinued (but still supported) product that is 20 years old.  Call HP and ask for similar support, they'll go "Huh" ?.  I'm certain that a lot of computer manufacturers have diagnostic tools intended for factory use that they will never release to the public.  Same thing here.

Most folks trust ETC Tech Support to tell us when a product is functioning correctly or not, and I've seen a lot of posts here describing exactly that for your situation.  I would think that would be sufficient as the console simply isn't so complicated that the tests others have suggested are not going to tell you what you want to know. 

And not for nothing, but everyone of these ETC folks have better things to do then deal with this, there are certainly folks calling with more pressing issues, so can we close this out now ?.

Steve B.

I certainly did read the "free" systems check - but you and I should both know that building a macro to execute a cue is hardly a proper systems diagnostic - nor is expecting an owner to run through every single possible combination of effects, submasters, executors and other console functions - that's simply not practical when there is a tool ready at our disposal to self test the unit.

And to Steve B suggesting this is "whining" is simply unfair.  Just because you dont care to want to know how to test your console yourself or havent had the need to doesnt mean that hundreds of other technicians might.

Perhaps you love living in a blind "head in the sand" world assuming everything is okay all the time

- heck - I think I hear a noise from under the hood of my car? Should I open the hood to see if there's something wrong?  No, Steve B wants you to go straight to a mechanic and waste his time because apparently we're  too lazy or ill equipped to open the hood to check for ourselves - remember "there's no user serviceable parts" in there...   or maybe for Steve B we'll just ignore any potential problems and hope they go away.  

Geez... this is something you dont agree with so we should simply close the topic and ignore it, just like not being able to run a self test on the console?

BTW -  it's a little early to pull out the "I've been in this business so long" card - and you might want to be careful pulling it out - you could lose that hand.

...

Let's see if I can summarize some of this:

1. You acquired a used Expression and wanted to run a diagnostic on it (11/20). You already use 3 others at your facility.

1. You express surprise that the Expression series didn't have a built in diagnostic program (11/23).

1. On 11/24 you inquire if it's possible for ETC to add this function to the console, “how about a diagnostic function.. that would be convenient to add in there, wouldnt it?  Lock it out similar to the CEM module's login? “.

1. Mike M at ETC states in part “You might hear rumors of an Expression Diagnostics test but this is a software tool used by ETC and our Authorized Service Providers to test for specific failures on a unit that has a reported failure from an end-user.”, which pretty much makes it clear that this is ETC software for in-house use.

1. When reminded that it's a 20 year old or so design and no longer manufactured (but is still supported), you ask then if it's possible to download the in-house diagnostics tool that the ETC factory tech's developed and used for in-house testing (11/26).

1. You post “sound of crickets chirping from ETC as diagnostic tool does not yet appear in the download section of site.” Maybe it's me, but I'm sensing a touch of impatience and attitude in this post that somewhat drives the responses.

1. Sarah C at ETC then replies in part “We are considering your request. We cannot simply post a 15-year-old diagnostic software tool on our web site since it was never designed for use by anyone other than manufacturing and repairs techs. There's no documentation, no instruction sheet, and very little user interface on it and we need to make sure that all that is in order before we post something like that. “

1. Followed by David North's post that stated in part “After spending a bit of time with the diagnostic tool it seems like it is far from the best thing to make available to the public.

1. Your follow on posts on 11/30 continue to complain (no other word describes it) that ETC AND EVERYBODY ELSE, is wrong and that the software should be made available.

1. I replied that many folks that have been around ETC products long enough to know David North and his experience(s), (as well as noting the replies from other senior staff at ETC such as Sarah Clausen (who heads the Congo line) as well as Mike Meskill, another extraordinarily experienced service technician and service manager) get listened to and that we all take the very good advice that ETC provides and that EVERYONE is in disagreement with you, yet you persist, while being very sarcastic towards myself, insisting that you are right and that the very useful suggestions to date for diagnostic testing are not good enough, forgetting that there are a couple of thousand Expression and Insight consoles produced to date (not to mention 17,000 some odd Express's running the same software) that somehow have survived to date and continue to function without this crucial diagnostic tool installed or available to the public.

2. I personally take no offense towards your description of my own trouble shooting techniques and/or methods of dealing with technical problems and chalk it up to the difficulties of expressing emotions and attitudes in a written format on the Internet. See it all the time. Best of luck with your Expression, BTW.

1. This has to be the most contentious topic I have ever seen on this forum and hope it's last of it's kind.

SB

Im just kinda depressed that you can't put Subroutines on submaster without a emphasis package....as I just found this out today.

I guess this is specifically why bit torrent exists. Because of situations just like this where narrow minded people try to censor everyone else because they have decided for us that it's "for our own good".

Thanks and bye.

. . .

Darnit, I keep posting well worded responses to this, but then, after finishing, I remember what I've learned from every other heated forum disagreement, and then I erase it. Sorry for the elipses. . .

Just for the record though, I read David's post and found it most satisfactory.  The OP is making WAY too big a deal of this.

Love the "Portal" avatar though, Richard!  (in GlaDOS accent)There will be cake for you, when you complete the testing protocol.  I promiiiiiiisssss. 

LOL, ETC is simply saving people from having to heart-breakingly destroy their personal companion disks when they inevitably become useless.  Man, if the OP knew what we were talking about, he would SOOOO understand now.  I'm sure everyone but Richard and I are going, "huh?" right about now.  It's an in-joke from a video game, sorry for the vague reference.

This may have gotten lost in the noise involved with this thread, but the most concise answer is that the general diagnostic tool you're looking for simply does not exist.  The software tools that were mentioned are a couple of very specific tests that can help troubleshoot a couple specific kinds of problems.  By themselves, they would not be able to determine the overall health of your console.  Also, as has been explained, they're not something that ETC is comfortable releasing into the wild for a variety of reasons.

There have been several suggestions in the thread of how to test your console without any special tools.  You're right that the macro Pete suggested doesn't test everything in the console, but it is useful for certain problems.  Sarah described a couple of good approaches to verifying that the facepanel hardware is working correctly.  It's also good to connect the console to some actual lights (preferably something with a small filament so it's easier to see flicker) and run all of the faders up and down repeatedly.  This will help find any that are dirty or aren't working correctly.  Connecting a DMX test device to each of the outputs can verify that they are working correctly.  Basically your goal is just to use the console as heavily as possible while watching carefully for any undesirable behavior.

I apologize for the frustration that this conversation has caused.  I just hope you can understand that most of these older products don't have a lot of the handy utilities we've gotten used to seeing in newer products.  This isn't about anyone trying to censor anything, or about trying to force you into sending it in for service.  We just don't have what you're looking for.