RGB LED indicators on console for Smartfade 2496

Short version: No way

I would love to see a LED only version of a Smartfade, and I'm sure the techs could work it out *somehow*. IMHO there will be a massive wave of people doing what you are doing, using a few LEDs and maybe a few conventionals. But the ML and LEDs can be pretty spendy, so somewhere there is a nice answer.

Did you just invent a new product?

I am still torn between whether I want to use a 2496 or an ML Smartfade.  After watching all of the training vidoes on Youtube, I'm not sure which board is a clear winner. 

I'm the lighting Director for a high profile video Podcast called TWiT.tv and I'm breaking out of my personal comfort zone for lighting design with this new studio build-up. They are a technology news and review network and are always involved in the latest and greatest in technologies both for their viewer/listenership and in their own internal endeavors and lifestyles. 

It seems to make the most sense to use the newest emerging lighting to illuminate their popular tech network shows. So, I choose to go with a large number of RGB and RGBW LED fixtures as all background set piece lights and edge/back lights and will key the hosts with Kino Flos for more than 6 new sets that will handle a dozen or more shows every week. 

I believe that this style of lighting will begin to make more and more sense to a growing number of new media "broadcasters" for two simple reasons. 

• Power consumption of LED fixtures and High Output fluorescents is only a fraction of conventional lamps (massive power bill savings)

• The overall lighting design can be much more varied if you have the added color spectrum of an RGBW or RGBWA fixture as you get not only cool and warm whites but a full range of RGBCMY color spectrum with data dimming built into each fixture as well. 

A blend of the 2496 board with it's multiple manual faders would be a great thing for novice board ops in a studio environment that often has interns work the faders and controls of an audio board, video switcher and lighting console all at the same time. On the other hand, with the ML, the color displays of the 'fixture selector' buttons is nice but seems to be assigned to the wrong task in context of actually operating multiple RGB LED lamps. 

In the end, maybe it is the beginning of a new concept in a Smartfade console line up: 

A console that is meant to control a large number of LED fixtures that require from 4 to 7 channels each. Some conventionals or HO Fluorescents on dimmers or relay boxes and a few simple programable chases or effects that can tie into the architectural lighting and some odds and ends of the studio space (that's basically the exact description of the space I'm designing right now : )

However, If the LEDs that act as the bump buttons of the current 2496 board have red and green now, and other buttons on the console have blue and yellow now, I wonder how simple it would be to do what is described in my first post.... to be able to assign the RGB or HSV channels of a light at varied levels to create a color and save that color to a single fader as a memory on the 2496 console.... and also have that RGB or HSV color display in the bump button below the fade where the look was recorded. That to me seems like a very easy goal for ETC to achieve either through firmware updates or near future hardware updates of what LEDs get installed into future versions of Smartfade boards. 

At any rate, I hope this is the right forum to post such a suggestion. I know I'll have a highly visible show to use the technology on if they do decide to go with such a plan... 

Hello -

In its current hardware design, it is not possible to make the red+green LEDs run as RGB LEDS. This would require a new hardware design and would be more expensive. I am uncertain why the SmartFade ML is not the console you would prefer to use, and I'll list the reasons why I think  you would be happier with a SFML console to control your LEDs:

1) SmartFade CAN do what you ask (minus the color preview in the bump key - not possible), however each fixture's color parameters would need to be patched to individual SF intensity faders. Even with a 96 channel console, a larger number of LEDs would quickly eat up the capacity of the console. Managing which fixture is which would also be challenging. But most importantly, the console handles all intensity channels with HTP logic - Highest Takes Precedence - which means once you create some memories to store your colors and looks, it will become harder and harder to adjust those levels. You will be able to easily bring levels higher, but to go lower will mean removing intensity from other sources first. I believe this will make you nuts.

2) SmartFade ML handles up to 24 multi-parameter devices, regardless of how many parameters each has. Also, non-intensity parameters like RGB and other additive color mixing systems up to the x7 color system of Selador are controlled using LTP logic - Latest Takes Precedence - meaning the last action "wins" and colors can be adjusted up and down without worrying about background levels. (I like to ask "which is higher, red or blue?" when people wonder why LTP is better than HTP for non-intensity.) SFML also gives you a number of ways to adjust those color levels. First, we provide 24 automatically-built color palettes for 12 saturated and 12 less-saturated colors so that you don't have to start from scratch with color mixing. If you prefer to find another color, the Hue and Saturation faders allow you to select devices and then move two faders to control all of them together, regardless of whether they are RGB, RGBA, RGBAW or x7. Lastly, there are the encoder controls which let you get to all the individual color parameters if you need to do fine adjustments. Then you can store over the pre-built color palettes if you choose to do so.

I would suggest contacting your dealer to try out both consoles first and see which one feels better to you. I believe, though, you will be happier with LEDs on the SFML console.

I hope this helps -

Thanks much -

Sarah

Hello -

In its current hardware design, it is not possible to make the red+green LEDs run as RGB LEDS. This would require a new hardware design and would be more expensive. I am uncertain why the SmartFade ML is not the console you would prefer to use, and I'll list the reasons why I think  you would be happier with a SFML console to control your LEDs:

1) SmartFade CAN do what you ask (minus the color preview in the bump key - not possible), however each fixture's color parameters would need to be patched to individual SF intensity faders. Even with a 96 channel console, a larger number of LEDs would quickly eat up the capacity of the console. Managing which fixture is which would also be challenging. But most importantly, the console handles all intensity channels with HTP logic - Highest Takes Precedence - which means once you create some memories to store your colors and looks, it will become harder and harder to adjust those levels. You will be able to easily bring levels higher, but to go lower will mean removing intensity from other sources first. I believe this will make you nuts.

2) SmartFade ML handles up to 24 multi-parameter devices, regardless of how many parameters each has. Also, non-intensity parameters like RGB and other additive color mixing systems up to the x7 color system of Selador are controlled using LTP logic - Latest Takes Precedence - meaning the last action "wins" and colors can be adjusted up and down without worrying about background levels. (I like to ask "which is higher, red or blue?" when people wonder why LTP is better than HTP for non-intensity.) SFML also gives you a number of ways to adjust those color levels. First, we provide 24 automatically-built color palettes for 12 saturated and 12 less-saturated colors so that you don't have to start from scratch with color mixing. If you prefer to find another color, the Hue and Saturation faders allow you to select devices and then move two faders to control all of them together, regardless of whether they are RGB, RGBA, RGBAW or x7. Lastly, there are the encoder controls which let you get to all the individual color parameters if you need to do fine adjustments. Then you can store over the pre-built color palettes if you choose to do so.

I would suggest contacting your dealer to try out both consoles first and see which one feels better to you. I believe, though, you will be happier with LEDs on the SFML console.

I hope this helps -

Thanks much -

Sarah

Sarah,

Maybe this should be another discussion but I have a question about your LTP comments.

I'm wondering about the use of HTP for LED color control. Unlike other fixture types there is a clear "highest" definition, at least for each color channel. Also most of the non technical folks I talk with not only understand HTP but expect it, for LED color. It may not be as "Smart" as the ML can do, but it might be vastly simpler for what I see as a growing group of users. 

So I've been thinking that some profiles that have color as intensity channels might be very usable. Can the ML do that with an x7? Would that require giving up any of the other color functions?

Hi Rick -

I'm not sure what you mean by this - color is color, intensity is intensity. If you want intensity control over colors, then they need to be patched as dimmers (and they would then take up 7 (for x7) dimmer channels, rather than being patched as devices. I assume this is when folks want to simply manually mix the colors, right? And not record anything at all? The trouble with HTP comes in as soon as you want to record and play back levels - because from that point on you cannot play with the colors as if they were dimmers unless you clear the background stored values first. See what I mean?

Thanks -

Sarah

I guess I'm pondering a philosophical question. HTP vs LTP. The OP is in a related debate as a SF is HTP and a SFML is LTP for color.

Normally I agree with everything you said, but I began to wonder if LEDs are a special case. They make color with intensity parameters natively and the rest is software. I don't worry about losing control of HTP lights as we manage intensity with HTP all the time. That only comes up with multiple cue lists or overlapping submasters. Traditional cyc and border lights are "compound" fixtures that we have color controlled by HTP for decades. As I said earlier the non-Pro folks that I work with seem to understand HTP more easily. Pros can handle either and generally go for the bigger boards with more options anyway.

I went poking around in the ML profile editor and confirmed that I could make an x7 (or lesser) profile using the User parameters for color. I guess the practical question is can the ML be made to treat any of these as HTP? Even better (in future software) have them link to the color features. I'm asking about the ML because it has compound fixtures that keep the channel count under control. Also because the LED buttons are very useful and cool.

RickR said:

Normally I agree with everything you said, but I began to wonder if LEDs are a special case.

I don't think LEDs are a special case at all.

A 'standard' RGB led fixture that's got RGB + Intensity is controlled exactly the same as a CMY + Intensity fixture that has inverted CMY parameters (0% level for flag fully inserted). There's quite a few fixtures like that.
- "Red" can be considered "Not Cyan", etc. (or vice-versa)

When you put the CMY flags all the way in you get black. (Ok, muddy brown in most real fixtures, but you see my point)

I suspect that the reason this has come up is when considering the LED solutions where you've just got three raw LED drivers, so no Intensity channel in the fixture. Many consoles (especially at the cheaper end) can't control that kind of fixture properly as they can't create a "virtual" Intensity parameter.

So for those, you have to choose between HTP 'colour' attributes or LTP without any Intensity control, and HTP is indeed almost always the better of these two compromises.

With Smartfade ML, Eos and Congo Families, regardless of whether your LED fixture really does have Intensity or not, the console can make one for you so you don't have to worry about it.

This means with a SmartFade ML, you can simply choose "Lilac", then fade the light up and down. Which is much nicer.