CEM+ Web Page Hanging - Modify Presets

First of all, two questions:

1. Which version of CEM+ firmware are you using?
• This is shown in the title bar of Internet Explorer when you connect to the racks.
• Alternatively you can go to About > Software from the CEM+ facepanel.
• There were/are some known issues with Room Preset editing using Sensor+ Connect.
  
2. Which version of Internet Explorer are you using?
• This should be shown under Help > About within IE.
  

IE7 has several known issues with CEM+ software - the web browser interface was originally written for IE6 (sorry), and a lot of details appear to have been broken when Microsoft released IE7.

Some of these can be bypassed using the Internet Explorer User Agent String Utility - Google can probably find it. (It's on the Microsoft website, and they keep rearranging it)

Secondly:

What do you want the Presets to do?

Sensor+ Presets are pre-recorded looks that are intended to be used with Smartlink 5 and 10 button stations (and the new Smartlink Timeclock) - are any of these already fitted?

While you can trigger Presets from the facepanel or via the webbrowser, that seems quite complicated compared to either hitting a button on a Smartlink or raising a submaster fader on your lighting console.

If you already have Smartlink button stations, then you can easily reconfigure the Presets using your console and the stations themselves:

1. Deactivate all the Presets that are currently running. (Turn off all the lights you don't want!)
   
2. Set up the look you want using your lighting console. (IIRC, the Bullfrog is a fader-per-channel console, so that should be easy)
   
3. At the CEM+ facepanel, login as Power User and enable "Station Recording"
4. At a Smartlink button station, hold down the button you want to re-record. It will flash On, Off, pause... On.
5. The Preset is now re-recorded.

Repeat the above for all the Presets you want to change - but remember to disable Station Recording afterwards or someone could accidentally erase your hard work!

However, I suspect that Presets are not actually what you want.

To me it sounds like you want to patch two channels together, or otherwise make two channels operate together on one fader on your console.

For that, it's best to leave the dimmers set up with only one circuit controlled by each DMX channel (in case you want to split them again next week), and to use either a "Softpatch", "Groups" or "Submasters" within the lighting console itself. Most lighting consoles support some or all of these features.

I know that the BullFrog has assignable Submasters, but I'm afraid I don't know very much about its operation. (I've used one twice!)

I believe that Zero 88 have some support forums as well, and they will be able to give you much more information about that specific console.

Richard,

 You are correct.  What I currently have is 2 channels that are operated by one slide on my BullFrog.  I can use the submasters to make multiple single slides act as one.  The issue I am hitting is that I need to seperate the 2 channels and place them on seperate slides to give more flexibility in the lighting. I could then assign the two individual slides to a submaster if they needed to move together.  Any ideas on how to seperate the channels?

 I didn't get to the rack tonight but will tomorrow and get the version of the software. I am running IE 6.0, I downgraded my 7.0 install so that I could use the web interface.

Thom,

It sounds like the two lights are both plugged into outlets for that dimmer.  In a number of facilities quite often more than outlet is connected to each dimmer.  Look at the outlets on your circuit strips or boxes and see if the two lights are plugged into the same circuit number.  If so, you will need to plug one of them into a different circuit to get separate control.

David

David,

Is it as easy as pulling rack away from the wall and looking at the back of the dimmer modules?  Finding the dimmer that I need to move one light from and moving it to an empty back elsewhere in the rack.

Any special handling needed other than with normal electrical items?

I'm going to read over the manual for the dimmer module today and probably get the  answer there but thought I would ask.

It would be  victory if I could split just one tonight.

Thom

You do not access the connections for a Sensor rack by pulling it away from the wall and if you don't know how to access the connections, then I am not comfortable describing it to you, being unable to judge on a public forum, your particular skill and experience dealing with electrical systems as such as the Sensor. 

Note that the Sensor racks have a single lug for each dimmer circuit and as per Dave North's scenario (and a Hi to David), the circuit he describes is more likely to have only one hot wire on the dimmer, but is likely feeding (with it's neutral) more then one circuit outlet out in the church, thus 2 lamps on one dimmer.  It is unlikely that the electrician ran 2 circuits back to one dimmer, as ganging wires on a lug (in the Sensor rack) is generally against code. 

Thus it's unlikely you can split the fixtures to 2 separate dimmers at the rack. Better that you figure out the circuit arraignment in the church and feed the light you need separated, from a different dimmer circuit.

Steve Bailey

Brooklyn College

Thanks to everyone for helping out with my question.  I did get in touch with the company that did the install and the lights were set up so that the left 32 and right 32 are setup in a thru model.  No simple way to split without adding additional dimmers.

So I will not be trying out my electrical skills on this.

Thom,

Great to hear that you got to the bottom of the issue

NOTE:

Steve wrote: “It is unlikely that the electrician ran 2 circuits back to one dimmer, as ganging wires on a lug (in the Sensor rack) is generally against code.”

After over 13 years installing Sensor Dimming I can tell you that this is very common occurrence…I’ve seen up to 4 @ #12AWG under a single lug. Not that I condone this activity one way or the other but it is important to remember that it does happen and therefore should always be taken into account in a case like this one.

Sincerely,

Mike

Well, here in the US, it is very common to see 2 wires/per lug in a rack.  I was always told that the racks (at least SR48/24's) were designed and rated for 2 #12 or 1 #10 wires per lug.

There is always the Dimmer-Doubler option

Dimmer-Doubler - could you elaborate it would make my job a whole lot easier.  We have lights with 19,26 and 36 tubes and with no lighting training we are having a difficult  time getting the lighting decent.  It seems if they were all the same it would be easier... but then again I'm not sure.

Anyone know of any online resources that could help us get some lighting training?

We are thinking that a light from the left and the right should be focused on the same area of the platform for best lighting but with the 1-32 left and right and the slides tied it makes it difficult.

Thanks for any assistance

Issue 1:  Multiple wires on a lug.

Correct me if I am in error. but isn't that against code ?.  Similar to 2 wires on a circuit breaker ?.  I thought that a lug was NOT supposed to be a splice/junction point ?.  Not that it isn't done, but I would suspect that it would have the manufacturer frowning on this practice as it allows an unlimited number of load wires in an enclosure and, among other issues, might invalidate the UL rating ?. 

As to Dimmer Doubling:

1) You need ETC Source 4 fixtures that accept an HPL lamp @ 77 volt lamp and you lamp them at 77 volts (approx. $16 per lamp ?)

2) You buy a Dimmer Doubler 2-Fer ($120 ea ?) also known as a Multiplex 2-Fer, which has a box full of electronics that split the sine wave of the dimmer, so that the upper half of a sine wave off a dimmer goes to Fixture 1 (at 77 volts when at 100%), and the lower half of the sine wave to the 2nd 77v fixture.  Thus 2 fixtures on 1dimmer/circuit, using one circuit wire set from the dimmer rack. 

3) You can set Sensor dimmers to Dimmer Double mode, which splits the sine wave output of a dimmer to 2 separate DMX control channels.  If memory serves, you can pick and choose which dimmers are DD.  You do not have to set the entire rack (s) to DD.  You just cannot easily have more then 256 dimmers in your system as it gets VERY complicated to deal with.

4) Console is set so that DMX channels 1-256 are the upper sine wave of dimmers 1-256, with DMX channels 257-512 as lower sine wave, of dimmers 1-256 - I.E, Dimmer Circuit 1, with a DD 2-Fer on it and 2 - 77v fixtures, and when set in dimmer double mode, is controlled as DMX channel 1 for upper half, and 257 as lower half - fixture 2, patchable to any control channels as desired.

Note that a fair amount of 12 year old single malt scotch helped with this explanation.

SB

Steve is correct, including having the single malt (jealous).

I have only to comment on the multiple wires on a lug issue.  Yes, we see this a lot.  Please note, however, that ETC does not condone landing multiple wires on a lug and we have added text to installation manuals indicating this.  Still, it is an issue for ETC only in so much as we try educate the installer.  Ultimately it is under the pervue of the local electrical inspector to determine if the rack has been installed to NEC and local codes.  Our UL listing does not specify how this equipment is to be installed.

In general, UL lists equipment under safety regulations and verifies that we ship the equipment as listed and do not modify it beyond those requirements.  UL also looks over our documentation which includes labeling and installation manuals.  We do have UL508 self certification that allows us to make one-off gear such as custom architectural stations without having each item brought before them.

The NEC determines how the equipment should be installed but each jurisdiction can adopt any year of NEC and then adapt it or modify it as they see fit.  As such, we rely a lot on the local installer to choose the correct path of installation and not modify equipment which then touches on UL.

A little hard to follow?  Yes, but we all try to keep up the best we can.

This is a good explanation.  Thank you Dave.  When I first started installing Sensor racks (before unison existed) I was told it was OK for the electrician to land 2 wires on a lug.  I think at that time, if the wire was landed in the correct place (I don’t seem to run into the problem of finding wires landed between the screw and the lug anymore….maybe it’s the illustration?) and they didn’t break the plastic lug mounting thing, it was a good day.

It also doesn’t seem as hard to explain the no-need-to-de-rate-the-breaker to the inspector as well.  Maybe I just look more convincing with age…

(And I am sorry for continuing way off topic) 

I think the best thing to say is that the rack is UL listed according to the installation instructions.  It is true that the NEC prefers a barrier between low voltage and high voltage but it is UL that determines if the application of such a cable in the manner specified is safe.

Confusing?  Once you get inside a cabinet, the typical NEC rules don't always apply.  The installation of a barrier is necessary in conduits, junction boxes and troughs.  A dimmer rack is none of those by definition.

That help?

David 

On the issue of Cat5 in the rack, I would suspect that the NEC might consider a Sensor rack a device, where low and high voltage current HAS to exist side-by-side, just like the guts of a old Expression. 

On the issue of how many wires in the rack, some food for thought from DN, and I admit to not being totally clear on the NEC and whether 2 load wires on a lug is allowed, but the trouble I have is that if the manufacturer has no opinion as to multiple wires on a lug (what does the lug manufacturer say ?), then it leaves you open to an installer configuring the rack in a method - in this case a lot of load wires that have potential heating issues, and is something that UL didn't test for and I believe that might be a problem.

Maybe send an e-mail to Steve Terry about these posts and see what he thinks ?.

Note that it's somewhat an academic issue, but in a few years I will likely be watching and supervising the install of another dozen racks at our new building and it wouldn't hurt to have it clear in my own head that the electricians should not be landing multiple wires, which they might be doing on a house light system as example.

Steve Bailey

Brooklyn College

Steve,

As it turns out, the lug is a combination of our design (pressure plate/tang) and an off the shelf terminal.  We had to achieve UL approval on those two items in concert as part of the rack design.  No doubt that conductor heating in the rack, and as important, free air space for plenum cooling are almost justification enough for only one conductor per lug.  We've had some installations where two three and four wires per lug were installed and needless to say that after the dimmer modules were forced into the rack there was no allowance for cooling.  Definitely UL did not test for multiple wires on a lug as you say.

Wires can be split and run multiple places through blocks and splices in troughs.  We have seen quite a large number of installations where a trough is mounted just above a row of racks and wire nuts or terminal strips are used to send different circuit runs in different directiosn through conduit.  It's really more effecient that way if you think about it.  With dimmer racks have such a narrow access panel to them (very nice when making tight wall and floor space available) it really is difficult to get all those conduits attached to the SR48.  Troughs solve these problems well.

So yes I will forward this to Steve Terry as he usually have nuggets of wisdom in such areas.

David

One of the things that suprises me is to hear about multiple wires in the rack, as I have to wonder why ?.

I can see scenarios where outlets/equipment is added afterward, and rather then trace out a wire for a tap/splice downstream, which is something that is seemingly beyond the capabilities of trade electricians (even though they sell all kinds of nice trace kits at every electrical supply house), they home run to the lug.

In a new install, I would put a stop to it.  The system shouldn't require it, as one would think the cheaper method would be to splice locally, not home run back to the rack. The Nat'l Code (as well as all local codes) are/is very specific about numbers of wires in boxes, allowed junctions etc...  and DN is correct that raceway/troughs do make life easier, but I like to think that someone is watching the install and pointing out poor install practices.

Ah... to live in a perfect world.  Anyone know of one ?

FWIW and a rant about contractors.  We just replaced our stage floor, a $475,000 project.  Part of which was 39 new (as replacements) orchestra pit outlets for musicians.  Poor coordination had the electricians install the brass covered receptacles (all are duplex Edisons), then the floor contractor blue taped the brass covers, then applied 2 coats of stain.  The stain leaked right thru the tape and into the receptacles.  The contractor then cleaned the top of the ivory receptacles, of which about 5 have a pool of hardened stain in the bottom of the receptacle so as to prevent a connector from seating.  I am going to tell the college's project manager that the electricians will have to replace every outlet, as all of them look like they had an attempt at being cleaned.  My concern is stain on the inside of the receptacle contacts, potentially causing arching with a load.  Too friggin bad for the contractor, is my opinion.

 Steve B.

My insight on multiple wires under a single lug

I have seen many small installations where the #1 FOH (and sometimes the 1E) had repeating circuit numbers left and right of center. (1-10 left and than 1-10 right) In these cases there were individual wires run all the way back to the rack. The reason, as I’ve been told, was cost. Due to cost cutting the rack was not fully populated with the thinking that the 2 wires could be separated at a later date when more funds were available to purchase more dimmers.

As much as any of us might think that doing this is a bit insane as when is a small installation ever going to get back to adding 9 or 10 new dimmers with the electrical work to make the changes….it does still happen. (I have yet to see this happen in Germany)

{Shout-out to my good friend David North…Thanks for jumping on the multiple wire grenade that I tossed. After Steve’s response to my post I kept telling myself…. ‘I hope David is reading this’ as he is the one with the double E and therefore much better versed in these sorts of things.}

Mike

My insight on multiple wires under a single lug

I have seen many small installations where the #1 FOH (and sometimes the 1E) had repeating circuit numbers left and right of center. (1-10 left and than 1-10 right) In these cases there were individual wires run all the way back to the rack. The reason, as I’ve been told, was cost. Due to cost cutting the rack was not fully populated with the thinking that the 2 wires could be separated at a later date when more funds were available to purchase more dimmers.

As much as any of us might think that doing this is a bit insane as when is a small installation ever going to get back to adding 9 or 10 new dimmers with the electrical work to make the changes….it does still happen. (I have yet to see this happen in Germany)

{Shout-out to my good friend David North…Thanks for jumping on the multiple wire grenade that I tossed. After Steve’s response to my post I kept telling myself…. ‘I hope David is reading this’ as he is the one with the double E and therefore much better versed in these sorts of things.}

Mike

I have delt with many sites where a rack is replacing a wall of 6 or 12k autotransformers (I guess there just isnt too many of them left out there) that are feeding load panels with a bunch of 10A breakers to loads.  When they get moved over into a bunch of 20A breakers, loads often have to get combined.

Are the Sensor lugs designed for both solid and stranded wires?  I have just been assuming they are, but I do not see anything to that effect in the installation manual.  I see 90 deg Cu except for Gnd.  And I see Torque ratings (except for Gnd, which says "manufacturer's spec...").

The fact is, I can not recall ever having to replace a damaged lug caused by a loose wire, in any installlation that was properly turned on.