Cyberlights on 110V?

[QUOTE=tadawson;53810]Electrical code and experience don't produce bonehead comments such as:

(Which granted, was not you . . . but *was* what I took exception to . . . )

That's just plain ignorance of the solution. A properly sized transformer will have a lifetime similar to a large rock . . . they are both passive, and if properly sized, will live forever.

My global touring experience with both step-up and step-down transformers, especially smaller ones, has been pretty bad over the last 15 years.....if ever in a touring situation where I have to use them I always plan for a minimum of 50% spares b/c I know they are not up to it.

I've had best results with larger iso-transformers, etc to handle whole distros, but I don't think those are relevant here.....bottom line I've seen dozens of the things go up in smoke on the road, and often they damage the gear they are connected to.

It's not boneheaded it's just what I've seen happen time and time again.

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53808](I'm avoiding mentioning what else i've been looking at, I'm unsure if mention of other brands Names is allowed on these forums.)

You can mention other brands. The days of the single-vendor rig are long gone. Our consoles support fixtures from dozens of manufacturers, and most other manufacturers suppose HES fixtures.

We'd object if someone came on and started posting advertisements for other manufacturers, but in the context of a "What's the right tool for the job" discussion, it's OK.

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53813]I meant i'm willing to spend $50-$250 per transformer. When it comes to Cybers, I'm willing to put in between $500 to $800 each, depending on what type of Cyber (CL, SV or turbo) and condition.

I had a more thorough response written out sort of summarizing some of my situation and my trials currently, but ironically, the same video that inspired me to use Cyberlights crashed my browser as it was already typed out and ready to send :no: So I guess that's a harsh sign of some sort. Oh well.

I managed to snag a Technobeam Iris on Ebay today for a good price actually... Gonna see how that treats me maybe. Maybe the effects wheel on one of those can have some of the effects interchanged in favor of Litho's, at least creating some semblance of a second gobo wheel?

And @tadawson, besides working with some existing lighting professionals, which I am still searching out how to do, how do you suggest going about learning the essentials to do electrical engineering work as you do? Such as what sorts of courses should I keep an eye out for, what sort of things to do?

Thanks
-C

Not to sound snide, but I have an EE degree from a Big 10 school . . . not sure what else to suggest . . . .

- Tim

[QUOTE=Marty Postma;53827]My global touring experience with both step-up and step-down transformers, especially smaller ones, has been pretty bad over the last 15 years.....if ever in a touring situation where I have to use them I always plan for a minimum of 50% spares b/c I know they are not up to it.

I've had best results with larger iso-transformers, etc to handle whole distros, but I don't think those are relevant here.....bottom line I've seen dozens of the things go up in smoke on the road, and often they damage the gear they are connected to.

It's not boneheaded it's just what I've seen happen time and time again.

Sounds like nothing more than someone specifying the wrong gear . . . that does not condemn the concept in any way . . .

- Tim

It must be a cord-connected transformer, listed as cord connected (and not a permanent install transformer with a connection cord added in the field), with properly rated connectors on both input and output. It also has to be properly rated (or appropriately de-rated) for the power factor and harmonic content of the fixture being connected. Ensure that it's setup for a US style grounding scheme, and not a 55v/55v center tapped configuration often used on jobsites in the UK and elsewhere.

If all of these conditions are met, then there is no problem.

Bingo! We have a winner!

Here's the problem: You can't tell from looking at a standard outlet if it's being fed by a 15 amp or a 20 amp breaker. Thus, to be safe you have to assume it's on a 15 amp circuit.

If a qualified person can determine it's a true 20 amp service, with no other loads connected, than you can draw 15 amps continuously and stay within the strictures of code (at that point the 15 rating of the standard US style power outlet would become the limiting factor since it's less than the 16 amps you can draw from an 80% de-rated 20-amp service)

And silly me, I always thought having a 10 second peek in the panel to see what breaker size was feeding a circuit was a simple thing to do . . .

Also, for a Cyber, in this case, per your prior messages pulling 1400 plus step-up transformer losses, you are still well within the 1800 rating of a 15A outlet, and well below the 2400/derate 80% of a 20A breaker . . . .

I *DO* think these things through . . . . .

- Tim

[QUOTE=tadawson;53833]
And silly me, I always thought having a 10 second peek in the panel to see what breaker size was feeding a circuit was a simple thing to do . . .


Finding the breaker is the easy part (usually). Determining what other loads are connected can be much more challenging. Unless you have as-built electrical drawings for the facility (properly updated for any moves/adds/changes since installation), it can take hours. Even then it's easy to miss one outlet that has something plugged into it that can take you over the limit.

Please note that I've never said it can't be done. The whole point I'm making is that running a 1200-watt fixture off of a standard residential/commercial wall outlet is borderline at best. You're flirting with the upper end of what's practical. You may get away with it, or you may not. I don't recommend it.

Well, I never said it was an ideal situation . . . but it beats the crap out of standing in the dark! Sometimes, things like this are the *only* option, other than don't use the gear . . . .

Also, I don't know where you have been working, but at least in the spaces I find myself in, figuring out what outlets are fed by a circuit is also a pretty trivial exercise. In commercial facilities, panels tend to be pretty well labeled, and branch circuits don't go all over hell and back like sometimes happen in homes, when the guy who did the wiring appears to have been stoned at the time. On stage, i find that the chance of someone adding something to an on-stage utility outlet unseen is also almost zero - they are far too easy to see, and if you have a handle on your show, you are in control of that anyway.

Obviously more complex than if you have a switch (and after 5 years, I *finally* got the venue that was causing me to do this to put one in . . . after I *bought* it for them . . . ) but as said earlier, it beats standing in the dark.

- Tim

Well, I may as well say then. I currently have 10 Roboscan 1220's coming in as we speak, each of those is 1200W, with roughly i'd guess the same features as the Cyber, including CMY, but not as interesting gobos and less effects. Those have a switch for 110V. I also have a poor Stage Scan sitting outside (Poor things neglected a bit because I can't run it, yet) that I got for an irresistable deal of $150 anyways, and supposedly it works, but I dont' have 208 to test it. It also has a decent amount of broken glass inside it so i'm afraid to touch it to get it working, for now at least. That too is 1200W. I am also considering bringing in PAL 1200's for their Framing shutters and CMY mixing, but a measly 4 gobos. Those too are 1200W and have a 110V option. Now there are the PAL 1200FX, which have all the features of the Cybers and more, but I honestly can't even dream of finding any of those, they seem almost nonexistent. And they're not as good looking as the Cybers.
Then we have my Computer which is running off of a fully used 1200W Power supply as we speak, but that is probably different in some way from lights anyhow.

So this leaves me with the question why it is that Cyberlights seem to be the only HES lights that require 208/230? Others have shown that 1200W Lights can indeed run off of 110V. (I am aware that All magnetic ballast lights require 208/220V though, I'm unsure if thats what Cybers use) Could the same principle apply to the Clay Paky 1200's as well, which are also 208/220? Not trying to be rude, but once again, i'm very curious.

(Then there's also the Coemar CF7's which require 208... But they use the exact same lamp as the X-Spots, which require as little as 90... Thats interesting, but I think i'll choose the X-spots over those)

@Tadawson Well, I'll look for that in a lesser university/college heh, it sounds worth a shot. My final goal is to be able to modify the lights themselves safely to run on 110V, as other lights of similar power do. If the lights in question still have warranty though i'll probably refrain from that, at least until the warranty is finished.

I hope i don't sound like too much of an idiot or anything, this is just what i've seen and thought.

-C

[QUOTE=tadawson;53832]Sounds like nothing more than someone specifying the wrong gear . . . that does not condemn the concept in any way . . .

I'm not condemning the concept......it is quite sound.....I just know from a practical standpoint that this is very far from ideal.

I know I wouldn't want to tour that type of config, but for a fixed install, shorter duration deployment, my experience over about 5 years of having to do so has been the opposite - zero issues due to stepping up . . . . . Toting the damn transformers isn't fun though . . . using one big enough to not have issues is something close to 50lbs *each* . . . .

For what it's worth . . .

- Tim

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53840]Well, I may as well say then. I currently have 10 Roboscan 1220's coming in as we speak, each of those is 1200W, with roughly i'd guess the same features as the Cyber, including CMY, but not as interesting gobos and less effects. Those have a switch for 110V. I also have a poor Stage Scan sitting outside (Poor things neglected a bit because I can't run it, yet) that I got for an irresistable deal of $150 anyways, and supposedly it works, but I dont' have 208 to test it. It also has a decent amount of broken glass inside it so i'm afraid to touch it to get it working, for now at least. That too is 1200W. I am also considering bringing in PAL 1200's for their Framing shutters and CMY mixing, but a measly 4 gobos. Those too are 1200W and have a 110V option. Now there are the PAL 1200FX, which have all the features of the Cybers and more, but I honestly can't even dream of finding any of those, they seem almost nonexistent. And they're not as good looking as the Cybers.
Then we have my Computer which is running off of a fully used 1200W Power supply as we speak, but that is probably different in some way from lights anyhow.

So this leaves me with the question why it is that Cyberlights seem to be the only HES lights that require 208/230? Others have shown that 1200W Lights can indeed run off of 110V. (I am aware that All magnetic ballast lights require 208/220V though, I'm unsure if thats what Cybers use) Could the same principle apply to the Clay Paky 1200's as well, which are also 208/220? Not trying to be rude, but once again, i'm very curious.

(Then there's also the Coemar CF7's which require 208... But they use the exact same lamp as the X-Spots, which require as little as 90... Thats interesting, but I think i'll choose the X-spots over those)

@Tadawson Well, I'll look for that in a lesser university/college heh, it sounds worth a shot. My final goal is to be able to modify the lights themselves safely to run on 110V, as other lights of similar power do. If the lights in question still have warranty though i'll probably refrain from that, at least until the warranty is finished.

I hope i don't sound like too much of an idiot or anything, this is just what i've seen and thought.

-C

I think it was a judgement call by HES, demand vs. cost vs. size/weight. While there really aren't any electrical/mechanical reasons why a 1200 watt magnetic ballast can't be build (other brands doing so have verified this . . . ) the additional windings needed to support 110volts make the ballast larger and heavier. The demand for 120volt on these type of fixtures is also likely very low, since damn near everything out there in rigs that run this type of stuff has proper power and distro. So, I think HES made the call based on size/weight/demand, and that was that . . . Other mfgs. made the call differently.

I know in the Studio Color "M" (magnetic), the lamp ballast is the *only* component that restricts the unit from running 120volts . . . and when they put in the solid state supplies, 120 was an option. Since the "M" was a result of development delays in the SS supply, likely the choice was once again space - the 208/220 50/60Hz ballast that is in the M is a tight squeeze, and I doubt that much more would have fit.

Which also leads to the problem of doing any type of conversion . . . unless you can find a ballast that is the same size (doubtful) and that can run 120volts, you are pretty much stuck with an external conversion, and hence my suggestion to use step-up transformers. The Cyber, unlike the Studio Color, does not run a switching motor/low voltage supply, so the main power transformer would need to be changed as well . . . another item unique to the Cyber, and not likely available except as a custom item.

So, if you want to have some custom ballasts/transformers made, likely at many times the cost of the initial fixture, *and* likely violate any UL/CE certs on the fixture, external is about the only route you can go . . . that, or get the correct power in the places that you need to work. Even if you can't get 208, any of the HES magnetic ballast fixtures *CAN* run on 240, which is a standard US service from homes and up . . . it's simply a matter of getting an appropriate tie-in to the power, which is not terribly complex or expensive, and if the venue is going to be using this stuff on any kind of a regular basis, is a far easier route to go in most cases. Schools, however, who are more concerned about the color of their seats than the quality of their shows, can be problematic, however . . . .

- Tim

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53840]
Well, I may as well say then. I currently have 10 Roboscan 1220's coming in as we speak, each of those is 1200W


I saw a Robo 1220 running at 120v nearly melt the circuit feeding it about 10 years ago. I was checking something else inside a dimmer cabinet and happened to put my hand near the wire that went into the raceway to the 1220. It was so hot I couldn't touch it.

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53840]
I am also considering bringing in PAL 1200's for their Framing shutters and CMY mixing, but a measly 4 gobos. Those too are 1200W and have a 110V option.


Ask on the Light Network about the PAL 1200 before you buy any. That have a...reputation.

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53840]
So this leaves me with the question why it is that Cyberlights seem to be the only HES lights that require 208/230?


For years it was the only 1200 watt fixture in the HES line. When Studio Command 1200 came along, it also was 208 only.

Cyber, Cyber 2, Showgun, and Shobeam all require 208 too.

It's a matter of where you draw the line between 120 and 208 volt operation. Most fixtures up to 1000 watts can run on 120. Most fixtures 1500 watt and above require 208. 1200 watt is a wildcard, and it depends on who designed the fixture and their priorities.