Cyberlights on 110V?

Use an external stepup transformer, about $100 the last I looked . . . . works fine, clean power, no probs. no mods to the fixtures . . .

- Tim

[QUOTE=tadawson;53786]Use an external stepup transformer, about $100 the last I looked . . . . works fine, clean power, no probs. no mods to the fixtures . . .

- Tim

Sounds worth a shot... Can you recommend some to me, that will do 110V Stepping up to 208, and 220V for stuff like Cyberlights and other lights? Preferrably one that can support around say, 6 fixtures on it?
I'm not very confident in my own ability to find the right one myself, I'm not very good with many electrical terms heh. If I can get a hold of some nice, heavy duty high capacity ones, that would open the possibilities i can pursue equipment wise very greatly!

Please let me know a few to go for if possible!
thanks
-C

If you are going with step-up transformers, you will probably want one per fixture. This way when (not IF but WHEN) one goes up in smoke you don't lose your whole rig. Also one that is large enough to run multiple units will weigh hundreds of pounds (there is a whole lot of copper winding in those things).

Your best bet is to go with proper 3-phase power, even if it means getting a small generator you will be much better served.

Hope this helps. :)

Where will you be using these fixtures? If you use a step-up transformer, you'll likely end up needing more current than can be safely drawn from a standard 15 amp, 120 volt US wall outlet. There are higher current outlets available, but they're not commonly found in commercial buildings.

You may be better off looking at something with a 575 or 700 watt lamp. Even if you got a Cyber running off of 120volts, it's not really practical.

Heya
I'm going to be using them in a variety of places. This may range from large school auditoriums, to nightclubs, restaraunts, or even garages, depending on where my stepdad is touring, parties, or wherever they may be needed that I haven't thought of. The main reason i'm going for Cybers is because they have a nicer feature set than most other scanners currently (And I can get them for prices I can actually afford), namely CMY Mixing, Dual Litho/gobo wheels + Effects, and 1200W of brightness seems very nice when doing something like an Auditorium, especially when I need to have the image reach from one end of the auditorium to the other without it fading very much. I couldn't really find any other from high end or others that have those features and support 110. There were a few 1200W Fixtures that I looked at which support 110V, but they are quite a bit heavier, and they don't have as many or as good Lithos/Gobos as the Cyberlights do.
If someone can make a recommendation as to what I should look in to though, 700W or 575W wise, i'll gladly give it good consideration. 250W seems a bit underwhelming in my opinion though, and LED-Wise i'm probably going to wait a while for the price to drop.

I will say though, the X-Spots are very, very tempting, beautiful feature set it seems and nice 110V support. Only obstacle is probably the price and movability.

And in response to MarTy's post, how should I go about getting/finding a 3 Phase connection? I'm not very familiar with those lol, I don't think we get 208 Service around where I am, just 220 and 110 i think.

Thanks!
-C

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53796]And in response to Mary's post, how should I go about getting/finding a 3 Phase connection? I'm not very familiar with those lol, I don't think we get 208 Service around where I am, just 220 and 110 i think.

Wow....drop a "t" and my entire gender changes....;)

All joking aside.....I suggest you spend some serious learning time with a qualified entertainment electrician......playing with this kind of power on your own without guidance WILL get you killed and potentially others around you as well.

[QUOTE=Marty Postma;53797]Wow....drop a "t" and my entire gender changes....;)



Oh oops XD That was a fail on my part, i'll edit it soon.

I've been meaning to try and learn how to do it actually, but when I asked many how to learn how to do electrical work such as this, I've never gotten a straight answer. They've basically said learn the physics of it (Though the physics course at my school was, to put it lightly, fail, in that it only taught us the calculations and such). If there is a single or two courses in particular, like college level, that I should look for which would focus more on the *doing* bits of this type of thing, I will gladly go for those, but up to now nobody anywhere has given much of an answer, heh.

Currently the main reason I'm daring to attempt such a risky thing is in trying to balance Budget and Safety.

A nudge in the right direction from this point would be greatly appreciated, whether it be which equipment besides Cyber's to go for that have similar feature sets, or how to learn to do the necessary electrical work.

Thanks
-C

I understand, but in this business safety MUST always trump budget.

Your best bet is to find a local lighting company and go work for them for a while.....you'll learn a lot very quickly that way.

Don't focus too much on the 1200 watt lamp. The 1200 watt Cybers were great lights, but they're an older design with older optics, aluminum reflector, etc. Technology has come a long way since then. Some of the newer fixtures in the 800 watt range can get similar output on less power.

Moving lights are great toys to have. But owning them may not be the right thing for you. They're large, power hungry, and can be expensive to maintain. Replacing a blown lamp is very expensive. If you have dozens of units, maintenance averages out across them all, but if you have 2 or 3, a single failed CPU board can set you back a lot of cash. Finding appropriate power for them can be a challenge. Even if buildings that do have appropriate power, it's often not in the place where you need it. Doing tie-ins and temporary power distribution system usually requires a licensed electrician.

I'm not trying to discourage you from lighting. When I was in school I scraped, scrounged, and did anything I could to get my hands on lighting equipment (I still do...). I love lighting, and it's a lot of fun.

For starting out, you may be better off with something smaller. Something you can plug into a standard wall outlet and run with. Also, don't underestimate what you can do with conventional lighting. When you have larger shows, consider renting.

Finally, Marty has the right idea: Find a local lighting shop to hang out at. It's a great way to learn.

[QUOTE=Ccw_Rnz;53791]Sounds worth a shot... Can you recommend some to me, that will do 110V Stepping up to 208, and 220V for stuff like Cyberlights and other lights? Preferrably one that can support around say, 6 fixtures on it?
I'm not very confident in my own ability to find the right one myself, I'm not very good with many electrical terms heh. If I can get a hold of some nice, heavy duty high capacity ones, that would open the possibilities i can pursue equipment wise very greatly!

Please let me know a few to go for if possible!
thanks
-C

The couple of times I have had to do it, I used 2400 VA international voltage conversion transformers - in a case, all you need to do is plug in, and perhaps change the output connector. Considering that this is roughly 2x the draw of a Cyber, the chance of a failure, despite the fearmongers here, is minimal at best. The Cyber would be setup for 240 volts, not 208, for input of 110 . . .

Not that I love doing it, but I have been forced a couple of times to run my Studio Colors this way, and run 2x per transformer. 5 years and zero issues . . . after all, the last thing in the service coming to you is a transformer, and Cybers, despite being 208 volt capable fixtures, are *NOT* three phase - they take *one* phase of a 208 (or any other compatible voltage). Also, considering that a 15A outlet will supply 1800 watts, the 1200 watt lamp, ballast losses, and motor current should run comfortably within a 15A circuit, unless the breaker is soft, and the strike surge takes it out . . .

- Tim

I see what you're saying, and I understand it. Please don't feel that I'm ignoring you or anything, because I'm not ignoring anyone at all, I'm giving serious consideration to what you've said, and I do feel it is good advice.
Thing is I'm having trouble finding any lighting agencies that I could possibly get an internship or similar with around my area, though I have seen some higher tech lighting in various theater performances, so perhaps I'm just unsure what to look for... That brings up the question, lighting agency wise, what should I look for, that i might have a chance of an internship or something with?

For the mean time, I would appreciate suggestions of what I should try and go for, to start sort of medium-small. I'm not really in to more of the DJ oriented stuff as I am more toward Intelligent, higher tech stuff. I ordered in a Technobeam Iris recently for a pretty good price, so I'm giving that a shot to see what those are like. Darn high price though, higher than the Cybers themselves it seems...

As for transformers i'm probably willing to spend up to $50 each on fixtures, but If I can find a good alternative to Cybers i'd probably go with those.

-C

(I'm avoiding mentioning what else i've been looking at, I'm unsure if mention of other brands Names is allowed on these forums.)

It's really a case of electrical code and experience rather than fear-mongering.

One critical fact you're missing is that standard circuit breakers are only rated to hold 80% of their rating with a continuous load. That means a 15-amp breaker can only supply 12 amps continuously. Drawing more than 12 amps for a few minutes is usually fine. But you can end up with nuisance trips when you're running the load for an hour or more.

Let's assume that a 1200-watt fixture is drawing 1400 watts from the electrical service after you account for ballast losses and motor power. A 15A/120V service derated to 80% can nominally supply 1440 watts. If the step-up transformer is 95% efficient, you've gone over the limit.

So, you're already in a precarious situation.

Now, consider the standard wall outlet (which is what it sounds like Chris wants to use). Let's take a 15-amp wall outlet that's 250 feet from the electrical panel. If you're lucky it's 14-gauge wire (If it was a crummy install from the '60s it may be 16 gauge, or even worse aluminum wire). 500 feet of 14-gauge (250 for the hot, 250 for the neutral) is about 1.2 ohms. From Ohm's law, this gives you about 14 volts of voltage drop. If your electrical service started out at 120 volts, it's now down to 105. If it was 112 or 115 to start with it could be 're drawing even more current through the circuit breaker.

Standard residential/commercial outlets just aren't intended for this kind of high-power use.

Finally, think about the electrical systems often found it old school buildings, clubs, etc. The in-wall wiring can be 50 years old or more. A heavy load will exacerbate any problems that are already there. Every loose connection and rat-chewn wire will be that much closer to over-heating or burning out.

Yes, sometimes it will work. It sounds like you (Tim) have had good experiences with using step-up transformers for larger fixtures. But there can be problems, and it's definitely not something I'd recommend to someone just starting out.

(Just be be clear: I am *not* a licensed electrician and cannot give advice for any particular jurisdiction. I'm speaking strictly from my own personal experience and knowledge. Electrical codes vary widely across the country/world.)

Electrical code and experience don't produce bonehead comments such as:

This way when (not IF but WHEN) one goes up in smoke

(Which granted, was not you . . . but *was* what I took exception to . . . )

That's just plain ignorance of the solution. A properly sized transformer will have a lifetime similar to a large rock . . . they are both passive, and if properly sized, will live forever.

The units I am speaking of are UL/CE listed in enclosure - so what code problem again?

And I don't know where 15 amp circuits came into the discussion, but certainly not from me. Note I suggested a 2400VA step-up, which pretty clearly implies a 20A breakered circuit . . . and I have seen damn few commercial facilities at which the utility power wasn't breakered at 20A . . . and pulling 1600 or so watts on a 20A circuit is not "this kind of load" it's more like "what it's rated for" . . .

Granted, you *must* know the venue and the wiring system, and in that we agree - I made the assumption that he had plenty of 120, and nada for 208, which is the case in a lot of schools and other smaller "townie" venues, even recently built. (I was in a nice house last week - 1 year old, beautiful Vortec fly system, etc. etc. and not squat for a power tie in . . . amazing what they can forget at times, even today . . . ) but I digress . . .

And yes, the crappy club scene is scary, and I am fortunate to have not had to touch that in years . . . . so, my mind was thinking of more "real" performance spaces, that have crippled power - see above. Regarding the length of run at 120V, I think that is unrealistically long myself . . . you step up at the outlet, and then cable to the lamp at 240, thus negating a lot of the drop. If the run is that long, even if you got 208 all the way, it will be a factor . . . . and if the drop is that bad, meter at the fixture, and consider the 208 tap vs 220 or 240 . . . not really that hard to deal with, with a functional brain, of course . . .

Oh, and my experience is as an Electrical Engineer, with decent experience in power systems, and 25 years or so in lighting . Perhaps I am more willing to use "creative" solutions on my own stuff, since I know what is what, and can ensure that all is up to the task, and in this regard, I may over suggest for some folks. I just have a hard time dumbing down my suggestions based on the end user - I prefer to speak to the technology, and let the end user figure out what does and does not apply . . .

To the OP, it sounds like for what you want to do, a Cyber may well be far more fixture than you are looking for. Other than the power requirements, they are quite large and heavy (110lbs, IIRC) and don't fit in small venues well. Oh, and forget about getting one, (other than perhaps the Katrina refugee that a photo was up of a while back - basically underwater for a month) for $50. The cheapest I have ever gotten *any* quality mover is $200, and that was for quite old stuff that was not working and that I had to rebuild. If you want something you can trust, and is a decent brand, $500 each won't get much, but you might find something, and $1000 each is more realistic.

For $50 a hit, you will find nice PAR cans, with a lamp, and that's about it . . .

- Tim

[QUOTE=tadawson;53810]
The units I am speaking of are UL/CE listed in enclosure - so what code problem again?


It must be a cord-connected transformer, listed as cord connected (and not a permanent install transformer with a connection cord added in the field), with properly rated connectors on both input and output. It also has to be properly rated (or appropriately de-rated) for the power factor and harmonic content of the fixture being connected. Ensure that it's setup for a US style grounding scheme, and not a 55v/55v center tapped configuration often used on jobsites in the UK and elsewhere.

If all of these conditions are met, then there is no problem.

[QUOTE=tadawson;53810]
And I don't know where 15 amp circuits came into the discussion, but certainly not from me. Note I suggested a 2400VA step-up, which pretty clearly implies a 20A breakered circuit . . . and I have seen damn few commercial facilities at which the utility power wasn't breakered at 20A . . . and pulling 1600 or so watts on a 20A circuit is not "this kind of load" it's more like "what it's rated for" . . .


The 15 amp circuit is my assumption, and here's why:
In most cases, if you have electrical service feeding an outlet, the current rating of the outlet must match or exceed the breaker's current rating. A 60-amp outlet can be fed by a 60 amp breaker, or a 50 amp breaker. That way you can never exceed the rating of the connector.

But, there's a special exception in the NEC for the standard residential/commercial 15 amp/120 volt outlet. You're allowed to feed a string of 15 amp outlets from a 20 amp breaker. The assumption is that you will plug in a lot of smaller loads that could add up to more than 15 amps, but that no single load will exceed the 15 amp rating of the connectors. The number of outlets allowed in the string, and the breaker requirements have changed substantially over time. The exact version of NEC in force at the time of the electrical install probably dictates.

Here's the problem: You can't tell from looking at a standard outlet if it's being fed by a 15 amp or a 20 amp breaker. Thus, to be safe you have to assume it's on a 15 amp circuit.

If a qualified person can determine it's a true 20 amp service, with no other loads connected, than you can draw 15 amps continuously and stay within the strictures of code (at that point the 15 rating of the standard US style power outlet would become the limiting factor since it's less than the 16 amps you can draw from an 80% de-rated 20-amp service)


One final detail:
If your outlet looks like this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NEMA_5-15_Outlet_120V-15A.jpg
Then it's a 15 amp outlet.

If it looks like this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electrical_outlet_with_label.jpg
(with the T-shaped inlet on one side) Then it's a 20 amp outlet and should be fed by a 20 amp breaker (assuming someone hasn't changed the outlet since it was originally installed).


Beware that the 2400VA cord connected transformer we discussed earlier should have the 2nd style connector (with one blade at a right angle to the other). As such, it won't plug in to the 15-amp wall outlet.

[QUOTE=tadawson;53810]

To the OP, it sounds like for what you want to do, a Cyber may well be far more fixture than you are looking for. Other than the power requirements, they are quite large and heavy (110lbs, IIRC) and don't fit in small venues well. Oh, and forget about getting one, (other than perhaps the Katrina refugee that a photo was up of a while back - basically underwater for a month) for $50. The cheapest I have ever gotten *any* quality mover is $200, and that was for quite old stuff that was not working and that I had to rebuild. If you want something you can trust, and is a decent brand, $500 each won't get much, but you might find something, and $1000 each is more realistic.

For $50 a hit, you will find nice PAR cans, with a lamp, and that's about it . . .

- Tim

I meant i'm willing to spend $50-$250 per transformer. When it comes to Cybers, I'm willing to put in between $500 to $800 each, depending on what type of Cyber (CL, SV or turbo) and condition.

I had a more thorough response written out sort of summarizing some of my situation and my trials currently, but ironically, the same video that inspired me to use Cyberlights crashed my browser as it was already typed out and ready to send :no: So I guess that's a harsh sign of some sort. Oh well.

I managed to snag a Technobeam Iris on Ebay today for a good price actually... Gonna see how that treats me maybe. Maybe the effects wheel on one of those can have some of the effects interchanged in favor of Litho's, at least creating some semblance of a second gobo wheel?

And @tadawson, besides working with some existing lighting professionals, which I am still searching out how to do, how do you suggest going about learning the essentials to do electrical engineering work as you do? Such as what sorts of courses should I keep an eye out for, what sort of things to do?

Thanks
-C