Existing events and LED cyc lighting

Steve,

How about using individual cells of the Selador fixtures to simulate the color cells of the incandescent fixtures?

So have  a cell that is mixed to create R23, the next cell for R27, next cell for R80 and next for R91.  Use the cell master  intensity channels to control intensities.

If there are enough channels on the Expression, this could be done by patching the cell intensities to the original incandescent intensity channels and then patching the individual color LED's to spare channels and parking them at the necessary levels (possibly determined by using a DMX tester to see what the ION color matching sets the 7 different colors to for each gel match).

I'm not sure how practical this would be- just throwing it out as an idea.

-Todd

Steve,

How about using individual cells of the Selador fixtures to simulate the color cells of the incandescent fixtures?

So have  a cell that is mixed to create R23, the next cell for R27, next cell for R80 and next for R91.  Use the cell master  intensity channels to control intensities.

If there are enough channels on the Expression, this could be done by patching the cell intensities to the original incandescent intensity channels and then patching the individual color LED's to spare channels and parking them at the necessary levels (possibly determined by using a DMX tester to see what the ION color matching sets the 7 different colors to for each gel match).

I'm not sure how practical this would be- just throwing it out as an idea.

-Todd

Todd, your solution was also recommended over on CB. Here's some of the issues:

The Selador 63” Vivid-R, probably the most likely of the Selador line to be used in this application, have 6 cells per strip. Each uses 8 channels, with one being intensity. Assuming an in-house setup with a good console, you would most likely configure this for maximum flexibility of cell usage, thus would configure the strips for maximum channels control, and would thus use 384 channels of DMX for the top and another 384 for the bottom. Thus the control spreads across 2 universes, which might well be universe 3&4 if you have dimmers on U1, with ML's and scrollers/other LED's on U2.

You then need to identify which DMX addresses are the Intensity channels for ea cell, so 96 addresses for intensity need identifying.

You probably would be using a Net2/3 system to get U3&4 to the Seladors, thus have access to Net2/3 configuration editing. You would need this to route vising console DMX data to the appropriate intensity channels and would use DMX to EDMX patching to route accordingly.

You keep your house console on-line and have the visiting console merging DMX to appropriate DMX devices.

You use the house console to “configure” the strips to replicate a standard multi-cell/color conventional cyc wash system, and to send DMX to Cell 1, 5, 9, etc... to “activate” with no intensity, as Red cells, then Cells 2, 6, 10, etc... as Blue, Cells 3,7,11, etc as Green and 4, 8, 12, etc as Amb. Can you then “mix” within the house console to a particular Amber. Don't know. Not even sure the Seladors function in this manner.

The visiting Expression/Express then patches appropriate DMX address to the appropriate cyc channels, with the DMX to EDMX Net2/3 routing sending data to the desired Selador cells for Intensity.

And Viola', you have an LED cyc top and bottom system replicating a conventional T3/MR-16 cyc wash system.

In theory, the colors should be appropriate and the only tweaking might be intensity. A quick run thru the cues would allow for an easy intensity adjustment.

I need to try this and have no idea if it's feasible

Steve B.

Brooklyn College

Steve Bailey said:

You use the house console to “configure” the strips to replicate a standard multi-cell/color conventional cyc wash system, and to send DMX to Cell 1, 5, 9, etc... to “activate” with no intensity, as Red cells, then Cells 2, 6, 10, etc... as Blue, Cells 3,7,11, etc as Green and 4, 8, 12, etc as Amb. Can you then “mix” within the house console to a particular Amber. Don't know. Not even sure the Seladors function in this manner.

I think this is a particularly bad idea.  Cell#1 (Red) would have to have wider than necessary lenses to cover "areas" 1-4.  And you're only using 25% of the available RED LEDs.

I feel a better approach (for the unfamiliar road crew) is to only use the red, blue, green, and amber; circuits, ignoring the Red-Orange, Cyan, and Indigo circuits.  If using a non-LED-aware console (Expression3) patch all the intensities to one channel at and park it at full.  Viola, instant Xrays.

Derek wrote:

"I feel a better approach (for the unfamiliar road crew) is to only use the red, blue, green, and amber; circuits, ignoring the Red-Orange, Cyan, and Indigo circuits.  If using a non-LED-aware console (Expression3) patch all the intensities to one channel at and park it at full.  Viola, instant Xrays."

Yup, good point about how not using all the available Red (or Amber/Blue/Green) LED's might not provide enough intensity, as well as potential coverage issues.

Yeah, I was planning on ignoring the "other then RGBA" channels anyway.  So then breakout the appropriate DMX addresses for all the Red's, then all the Blues then all the Greens, then all the Ambers and patch them to 4 RGBA channels on the Express/ion and in theory the same channels that would be present if using incandescent and using the DMX to EDMX routing abilities to overcome any possible addresses out of the range of the visiting console.  Possibly the Express/ion channel values will come close and not need a huge amount of tweaking.  Only thing I liked about the other method is the ability to match and park, as it where, the colors as DMX values from the house console.  Thus you find that R23 and leave it.  Your method is less precise but possibly more flexible as it allows the visiting console control over the mix. 

This is all hypothetical, but neccessary to take into consideration when choosing a particular LED fixture.  The devil is in the details as usual.

SB

If the devil is in the details, the angels are in the goals.

A conversation with the original LD might yield some valuable information:

How critical is matching the cyc colors? Do they change a lot durring a scene?

How heavily cued is the show?

Since the fixtues are different will there be a lot time tweaking the cues?

I would als ask to get a copy of the show file and see what happens with a conversion to Ion. While I don't have any direct experience converting shows, the consoles are enough alike that I would expect good results.

"A conversation with the original LD might yield some valuable information:"

Usually these are one-off tours with a Lighting Supervisor/Director.  Designer is long gone to other things, so the LS/LD/SM makes the choices.

"How critical is matching the cyc colors? Do they change a lot durring a scene?"

"How heavily cued is the show".

I always provide what they request unless they say something like an R127 is OK as Amber.  If they request an R27 I don't give them R26 or R124 as I know the R27 is deeper and will blend differently.  Thus trying to match to a potential LED becomes an issue.

"Since the fixtues are different will there be a lot time tweaking the cues?"

Often 100 or more cues in a 1 hr, show.  Usually a 4-6 hr. load-in, with maybe 1 hr. to run thru the cues and tweak, sometimes 20 minutes.  So not a ton of time to ditz.  Thus I need to think about the potential pit-falls before I plunk down $80,000

"I would also ask to get a copy of the show file and see what happens with a conversion to Ion. While I don't have any direct experience converting shows, the consoles are enough alike that I would expect good results."

Conversions are pretty seamless these days.  I have had success with all sorts of Expression/Express to Ion, Ion to Ion, Strand to Express and Ion, etc...  sometimes the effects get scrambled or Strand or Expression multi-part cues don't read, but in general, the tour LD's know what will transfer and build up basic shows, OR bring a console if they are bringing special gear.  As to cue files, we always ask to have it sent in advance.  It's a request in our technical spec's to e-mail ahead of schedule, but most companies have gotten used to being able to easily and successfully load Express/ion or Ion disks/USB files into the house system (see my post about viruses) that only a few bother to send ahead of time.  Plus a lot of the road folks are just too busy to do file management, as well as internet access for them can be problematic. 

In truth it's only a few shows a year, but I have found that a LOT of these shows rely on, and count on time wise, to being able to simply load the cues.  If they hit a house with no ground-row, they adapt.  Certainly it's not life or death and they see a lot of spaces that have very little that the tour plot calls for.  I just feel stupid investing that kind of money and then repeatedly encountering situations where I have to make major accommodations to an event as a result of investing in the latest and greatest that possibly is a little bit ahead of it's time for certain situations.  As a post on Control Booth asked "are you making more work for yourself ?".

SB

The attached file is a Gel to Selador DMX calculator we assembled from our gel picker on our consoles. We cannot guarantee the accuracy - but it should get "good" results.

This discussion is an interesting issue and goes beyond cyc colors in to color management in general across various color changing products.  This is an issue we are working on at ETC and has been earmarked as an important to offer tools for handling.

Please try the attached spreadsheet and let me know how it works.

David Lincecum

ETC Marketing Manager

Two thoughts / comments

I tour with an Ion and have been to houses which have LED cycs. The first time I ran into this luckily the cyc coverage was good enough that I could break their LED strips into sections and mimic individual color cells like what was discussed above. I mixed 3 color palettes. and then just tracked that palette through the entire show for each channel (Red/Blue/Amber). Took about 5 minutes and the show was ready to go. Since then, I've created a second set of cyc channels purely for LED cycs and have put a bunch of Intensity pallets in since I've found that Amber channels on CYC units vary so vastly that I am having to adjust a lot. 

I have not been in the situation where I have to make a single cell LED fixture (something like the Altman Spectra Cyc)  do all of the colors for a show. Totally possible, but much more programming time and thought.

Now on to your question about a touring console.  What do you think about triggering the house console via Midi and cuing their cyc into your console? Having been in your house, if memory serves, you have a ton of Net 2. Assuming you put the LED's in universe 3 and 4 as you suggested above and address them to the smallest color block segments for max control.  On your house Ion you make up a bunch of groups (3 color cyc vs 4 color cyc) and left/right/center etc.... When you get the touring shows paperwork, just "move" the group for each color/section to match the channel number so their channel = your group.  I would assume that most shows don't have a ton of cyc cues. In a 200 cue show, might there be 50 moves on the cyc? Even if it is 100 moves, assuming that you can type and read fast, you can probably cue the touring show's cyc into your console in about 20 minutes.

Its similar to your post about leaving the house console online above, but rather than trying to do advanced universe mapping in the nodes to split out the 96 intensity channels to the touring console, just re program. 

Touring console goes into Net 2  input node for Universe 1 and 2. House Ion stays on standard Net 2 connection.  Midi from Touring to House. Curtain up?

The situation where this doesn't work of course is the touring show that likes to busk their show and cyc using subs. Then, you have a problem unless ETC comes out with a DMX IN to Submaster mapping system like another company has.

As Derek pointed out, a serious test would have to be done to look at the coverage of the strips if you break them down to color blocks to see if you still get any decent spread / output. 

Hey Ben

One of the issues I see with breaking out the LED strips to a "cell"of Amber with next "cell" in Red, etc.. is the problem Derek brought up concerning intensity issues by not using 2/3 of the Amber LED's, reds, blue, etc....  not to mention it being entirely dependent on how a particular cyc allows the cells to blend into a decent wash.  Do you by any chance recall whose LED cyc units you used ?. 

My hypothetical question also creates a worst case scenario, I.E. a visiting console whose ability to use LED's is more limited then what's available on an Ion type control.  Thus the EDMX patch scheme.  One time saver is once you do the EDMX patch, you can save the Net2/3 Config Editor file for future use, so you're not having to re-create this massive (and potentially error prone) patch every time, ASSUMING you can assign to the same addresses on the visiting console and that they haven't allocated those addresses for other gear.  Usually a visiting console is set up so that the first universe is house, with 2nd as show gear (scrollers, twins spins, etc...)  (or vice versa) IF they are smart about i

Then it's possible to create color only focus groups on an Express or Expression, which then become the reference palletes for the cues.  That's pretty easy to setup and saves time. 

You maybe still have to blend by eye though and I see no good alternatives to Kevins problem at the SF Ballet, except having to print out (or have cues/levels for the cyc/g-row) available on an adjacent laptop, as you re-cue a piece, times his 100 ballets, possibly while using David Lincecum's Excel file to determine values. Possibly this could be done on the OLE for tweaking in the theater.  

As side note to David, a thanks for the file and a reminder that except in Ben's case it's all theory at this point, so no opportunity as yet to try it in the field. 

I thought as well about doing a MIDI link, but that would involve either 1) writing ghost cues in the house desk to be triggered. Then having to deal with MIDI SC links.  Seems to me it might be no less time to simply bop thru the cues in the visiting desk while using Color Points and simply do it by eye. Or 2) importing the visiting console cue file, then not patching any addresses to other-then-cyc channels.  Easy MIDI link at that point for the first cue, though I have zero experience with MIDI, FWIW.   I actually like this idea.

Throwing another thought out there, I had a company that had R64, R68 and R80 in the cyc.  That would absolutely require a blend-by-eye approach, cue to cue and in this case would not be using defined color cells, but would use every LED to get the desired colors. 

SB

This conversation came up over on the Stagecraft Mailing List and I've been very curious myself. I'm working on funding to get some Selador Vivid-R, and I have a Congo Jr.

My 'solution' to this situation, one I would likely encounter evenutally, relies on something I'd like to see ETC create for the Congo and Eos/Ion lines that I don't think is possible yet...

I'd like to see an algorithm to be able to do positive color mixing with LED color-changing units. I have no idea how complex in reality this would be, but here's what I'm thinking.

I want to replicate a four-color wash. So I create a color palette for each of the four colors and record each of the four independent color washes to a master fader. Then I bring each fader up to the right percentage to match the initial show's traditional cyc mix.

IE: Fader one is R27 and fader two is R80. The cue calls for the R80 cyc light to be at 60% and the R27 to be at 35%. I'd want to be able to bring fader one to 60% on the fader and two to 35% on the fader and have the console be so smart that it would mix the two incoming requests to generate a purple color that would roughly match the comparable color mix on a typical incandescent.

Then I'd just import the express disk into my show, use universe two to run their gear and check all the twinspin commands, and go through the cues matching my color faders to the percentages on the channels in the cues, re-record each cue with the new cyc lighting added in, and then run through the cues for the touring LD or SM to make any tweaks they need due to the usual variations.

Is this possible? Is this something ETC can cobble together soon, or is this a pipe dream? Even if it is a lot of programming for each different type of light, I would think at least making it work for Selador brand LEDs would be a valuable marketing tool, making both the Ion/Congo consoles more invaluable to those with LEDs and the LEDs more fabulous for those with ETC consoles...