Existing events and LED cyc lighting

Steve,

How about using individual cells of the Selador fixtures to simulate the color cells of the incandescent fixtures?

So have  a cell that is mixed to create R23, the next cell for R27, next cell for R80 and next for R91.  Use the cell master  intensity channels to control intensities.

If there are enough channels on the Expression, this could be done by patching the cell intensities to the original incandescent intensity channels and then patching the individual color LED's to spare channels and parking them at the necessary levels (possibly determined by using a DMX tester to see what the ION color matching sets the 7 different colors to for each gel match).

I'm not sure how practical this would be- just throwing it out as an idea.

-Todd

Todd, your solution was also recommended over on CB. Here's some of the issues:

The Selador 63” Vivid-R, probably the most likely of the Selador line to be used in this application, have 6 cells per strip. Each uses 8 channels, with one being intensity. Assuming an in-house setup with a good console, you would most likely configure this for maximum flexibility of cell usage, thus would configure the strips for maximum channels control, and would thus use 384 channels of DMX for the top and another 384 for the bottom. Thus the control spreads across 2 universes, which might well be universe 3&4 if you have dimmers on U1, with ML's and scrollers/other LED's on U2.

You then need to identify which DMX addresses are the Intensity channels for ea cell, so 96 addresses for intensity need identifying.

You probably would be using a Net2/3 system to get U3&4 to the Seladors, thus have access to Net2/3 configuration editing. You would need this to route vising console DMX data to the appropriate intensity channels and would use DMX to EDMX patching to route accordingly.

You keep your house console on-line and have the visiting console merging DMX to appropriate DMX devices.

You use the house console to “configure” the strips to replicate a standard multi-cell/color conventional cyc wash system, and to send DMX to Cell 1, 5, 9, etc... to “activate” with no intensity, as Red cells, then Cells 2, 6, 10, etc... as Blue, Cells 3,7,11, etc as Green and 4, 8, 12, etc as Amb. Can you then “mix” within the house console to a particular Amber. Don't know. Not even sure the Seladors function in this manner.

The visiting Expression/Express then patches appropriate DMX address to the appropriate cyc channels, with the DMX to EDMX Net2/3 routing sending data to the desired Selador cells for Intensity.

And Viola', you have an LED cyc top and bottom system replicating a conventional T3/MR-16 cyc wash system.

In theory, the colors should be appropriate and the only tweaking might be intensity. A quick run thru the cues would allow for an easy intensity adjustment.

I need to try this and have no idea if it's feasible

Steve B.

Brooklyn College

Steve Bailey said:

You use the house console to “configure” the strips to replicate a standard multi-cell/color conventional cyc wash system, and to send DMX to Cell 1, 5, 9, etc... to “activate” with no intensity, as Red cells, then Cells 2, 6, 10, etc... as Blue, Cells 3,7,11, etc as Green and 4, 8, 12, etc as Amb. Can you then “mix” within the house console to a particular Amber. Don't know. Not even sure the Seladors function in this manner.

I think this is a particularly bad idea.  Cell#1 (Red) would have to have wider than necessary lenses to cover "areas" 1-4.  And you're only using 25% of the available RED LEDs.

I feel a better approach (for the unfamiliar road crew) is to only use the red, blue, green, and amber; circuits, ignoring the Red-Orange, Cyan, and Indigo circuits.  If using a non-LED-aware console (Expression3) patch all the intensities to one channel at and park it at full.  Viola, instant Xrays.

Derek wrote:

"I feel a better approach (for the unfamiliar road crew) is to only use the red, blue, green, and amber; circuits, ignoring the Red-Orange, Cyan, and Indigo circuits.  If using a non-LED-aware console (Expression3) patch all the intensities to one channel at and park it at full.  Viola, instant Xrays."

Yup, good point about how not using all the available Red (or Amber/Blue/Green) LED's might not provide enough intensity, as well as potential coverage issues.

Yeah, I was planning on ignoring the "other then RGBA" channels anyway.  So then breakout the appropriate DMX addresses for all the Red's, then all the Blues then all the Greens, then all the Ambers and patch them to 4 RGBA channels on the Express/ion and in theory the same channels that would be present if using incandescent and using the DMX to EDMX routing abilities to overcome any possible addresses out of the range of the visiting console.  Possibly the Express/ion channel values will come close and not need a huge amount of tweaking.  Only thing I liked about the other method is the ability to match and park, as it where, the colors as DMX values from the house console.  Thus you find that R23 and leave it.  Your method is less precise but possibly more flexible as it allows the visiting console control over the mix. 

This is all hypothetical, but neccessary to take into consideration when choosing a particular LED fixture.  The devil is in the details as usual.

SB

Derek wrote:

"I feel a better approach (for the unfamiliar road crew) is to only use the red, blue, green, and amber; circuits, ignoring the Red-Orange, Cyan, and Indigo circuits.  If using a non-LED-aware console (Expression3) patch all the intensities to one channel at and park it at full.  Viola, instant Xrays."

Yup, good point about how not using all the available Red (or Amber/Blue/Green) LED's might not provide enough intensity, as well as potential coverage issues.

Yeah, I was planning on ignoring the "other then RGBA" channels anyway.  So then breakout the appropriate DMX addresses for all the Red's, then all the Blues then all the Greens, then all the Ambers and patch them to 4 RGBA channels on the Express/ion and in theory the same channels that would be present if using incandescent and using the DMX to EDMX routing abilities to overcome any possible addresses out of the range of the visiting console.  Possibly the Express/ion channel values will come close and not need a huge amount of tweaking.  Only thing I liked about the other method is the ability to match and park, as it where, the colors as DMX values from the house console.  Thus you find that R23 and leave it.  Your method is less precise but possibly more flexible as it allows the visiting console control over the mix. 

This is all hypothetical, but neccessary to take into consideration when choosing a particular LED fixture.  The devil is in the details as usual.

SB

If the devil is in the details, the angels are in the goals.

A conversation with the original LD might yield some valuable information:

How critical is matching the cyc colors? Do they change a lot durring a scene?

How heavily cued is the show?

Since the fixtues are different will there be a lot time tweaking the cues?

I would als ask to get a copy of the show file and see what happens with a conversion to Ion. While I don't have any direct experience converting shows, the consoles are enough alike that I would expect good results.

"A conversation with the original LD might yield some valuable information:"

Usually these are one-off tours with a Lighting Supervisor/Director.  Designer is long gone to other things, so the LS/LD/SM makes the choices.

"How critical is matching the cyc colors? Do they change a lot durring a scene?"

"How heavily cued is the show".

I always provide what they request unless they say something like an R127 is OK as Amber.  If they request an R27 I don't give them R26 or R124 as I know the R27 is deeper and will blend differently.  Thus trying to match to a potential LED becomes an issue.

"Since the fixtues are different will there be a lot time tweaking the cues?"

Often 100 or more cues in a 1 hr, show.  Usually a 4-6 hr. load-in, with maybe 1 hr. to run thru the cues and tweak, sometimes 20 minutes.  So not a ton of time to ditz.  Thus I need to think about the potential pit-falls before I plunk down $80,000

"I would also ask to get a copy of the show file and see what happens with a conversion to Ion. While I don't have any direct experience converting shows, the consoles are enough alike that I would expect good results."

Conversions are pretty seamless these days.  I have had success with all sorts of Expression/Express to Ion, Ion to Ion, Strand to Express and Ion, etc...  sometimes the effects get scrambled or Strand or Expression multi-part cues don't read, but in general, the tour LD's know what will transfer and build up basic shows, OR bring a console if they are bringing special gear.  As to cue files, we always ask to have it sent in advance.  It's a request in our technical spec's to e-mail ahead of schedule, but most companies have gotten used to being able to easily and successfully load Express/ion or Ion disks/USB files into the house system (see my post about viruses) that only a few bother to send ahead of time.  Plus a lot of the road folks are just too busy to do file management, as well as internet access for them can be problematic. 

In truth it's only a few shows a year, but I have found that a LOT of these shows rely on, and count on time wise, to being able to simply load the cues.  If they hit a house with no ground-row, they adapt.  Certainly it's not life or death and they see a lot of spaces that have very little that the tour plot calls for.  I just feel stupid investing that kind of money and then repeatedly encountering situations where I have to make major accommodations to an event as a result of investing in the latest and greatest that possibly is a little bit ahead of it's time for certain situations.  As a post on Control Booth asked "are you making more work for yourself ?".

SB

The attached file is a Gel to Selador DMX calculator we assembled from our gel picker on our consoles. We cannot guarantee the accuracy - but it should get "good" results.

This discussion is an interesting issue and goes beyond cyc colors in to color management in general across various color changing products.  This is an issue we are working on at ETC and has been earmarked as an important to offer tools for handling.

Please try the attached spreadsheet and let me know how it works.

David Lincecum

ETC Marketing Manager