Why Do The Screens Have to Change So Much???

And another thing is that, I did make another post about this a while ago, but the whole concept of using cues when you're trying to do timecode is probably not a great idea. I've been thinking about it and cues are a very human way of thinking about things, and what we're doing when we force computers to think about the world in terms of cues, is we're assuming that computers have the same limitations that humans have. And they don't. What I mean by that is humans in theatre depend on using cues because that is the easiest way for a big group of people to stay on the same page—when this actor says that, that line is Cue 47 and everyone has been taught what to do at Cue 47. 

Computers don't need to think that way. With computers, we can step outside the limitations of a big group of humans and think about things in terms of keyframes. So cues are snapshots of an entire rig (yes I know about cue only) and keyframes are points in time where we take a snapshot of just a single parameter completely independent of everything else. So with keyframes, we can say that Channel 1 should start at 0% intensity on Cue 1 and by Cue 100, it should be at Full. Meanwhile, there are 99 other things happening with dozens of other lights. And then you can decide if you want the interpolation between those two points in time to be linear, quadratic, or parabolic, or whatever you want. It's sort of like a cross between a linear effect and an absolute effect. Of course this is talking about timecode, not anything else. 

Another thing I've been thinking about is that the entire concept of Blind vs. Live probably isn't a great idea, at least not in its current form. The idea that a user must go into blind in order to edit a sub or look at groups or look at show control blows my mind. The user should be able to choose when they do or do not want to go into blind. Blind is great. But it should not be forced upon the user. If you're spending a lot of time working between a cue list and a show control for timecoding, you should not have to constantly be switching between live and blind. You shouldn't have to go into blind to edit an effect. You shouldn't have to go into blind just to glance at your list of groups if you don't have a direct select thing set up. You DEFINITELY shouldn't be forced to look at a f-ing live table every time you switch back. I honestly don't even know why anyone would have a desire to look at that. It's a really bad way of organizing information - great for specific things, but it's definitely not a commonly used tool... so why force us to look at the ugly thing so much?

I think there are a lot of ways this software as a whole is thinking about things the wrong way at the fundamental level. A common theme seems to be the theme of the board being too controlling over the user. It shouldn't make so many decisions for me. 

For Magic Sheet look at the manual page 464, you can change the behavior of the magic sheet.

Yes, some things are very strange, e.g. handling of lists like Patch as Blind is a very stupid concept. Also the self termination of selections.
There are many automatic functions which can't switch off, annoying. 

jordanhenshaw said:

its fascination with forcing me to see a magic sheet

If your critic is so massiv you have the wrong Desk,...

Keyframes not work in theater.
Because the most shows are not a Timecode Show.
95% of all Shows are act via Cues and Action on Stage.

Change your Thinking.
See a Cue as a Keyframe.
You can say:

So with keyframes, we can say that Channel 1 should start at 0% intensity on Cue 1 and by Cue 100, it should be at Full. Meanwhile, there are 99 other things happening with dozens of other lights. 

beacuse the Cues are not connect to each other, 
You can run all Cues you have program same time, you can say, THIS cue is (now) the leader (Assert) and all other Lamps do what he say.
It is possible say, Cue 1 Channel 1 at Full in 99:00 Minute.
And during this Cue runs, you can start all other Cues as you want.
As long the Channel 1 is not use in other Cues or you not say Cue XY Assert (for Channel 1) the Channel 1 will not get impress by what you do.

Your thinking seams is like a permanet Timeline and you add Events, Keys (or however you call it) and you can slide this Key all along this Timeline.
That not work in a Theater.
(And at the end,.... a Cuelist with times for every Cue is also a Timeline with Keys you can slide them to any position you want,... the graphic is different, the way it looks,... but the princip is same...)
Think about an Actor "kill" 2-3-4 sentences/side from Textbook and you have several action during he jumps around in his text.
How do the Keyfranes then help?
In a Cue-List you say: Okay, i will wait until he is back in Line with text and prepare Cue XY on my Master Playback. So all Moveinstructions will act, all Lamps will stay correct and we can play so the Audience never notice he have jump around.
How do you solve this with Keyframes?
In your case you must correct every Keyframe seperate in your Timeline, include the "Dark-Moves" you need.

Try it.
Use Blender as a "LightDesk".
Every Node is a Lamp and then you try programm a show with 300-400 lamps.
Nodes are also Cue and then try correct a Show....
Try programm a show ala the ESC or a Musical with 700 Cues...

At the End they all -EOS and Blender- works with "If-Then"
So it must be possible "programm" a LightShow with Blender...

Look of Groups:



I work with Snapshots.
My Snapshot 1 is my LIVE Screen.
In this Snapshot i have store what Flexi Style will be use, what Format for Channels is use, where do i open new Screens, this Screen is the Screen where i work with (gilden border is shown, so if i scroll, my Channels and not my PSD will scroll up-down), i have store the Zoom of the Screen and all settings the Gear Icon give me for this Screen.

I have also Snapshots for Preset (via Direct Select) and Preset BLIND.
Preset Blind open the Blind Screen for Presets. 
In this i have the golden Border, the Flexi State,....
If you not store it as a Snapshot but as a Macro, you can also add "Select Last"... and your last Selection will automatic shown in the Preset Blind.
For back to LIVE you can also store a Macro and add Channel [lowest Channelnumber you have in the Show] ENTER Clear_CMD and EOS switch back to "Full Screen" Show Channelnumbers.
In BLIND-LIVE EOS allways ever switch back to the last Channel you have select in Blind....
With Snapshots you can reduce the Screens switching
You can also select what Monitors are store in a Snapshot, the Encoder Status, the Faderpage, is the CIA is open or close, it is lock or unlock,....
And as ever,... you can store all this Snapshots in Macros and route this Macros to the Faderbuttonsas Submaster or at the Macrobuttons 801-808 (on EOS Ti, Gio@5, Apex,... you have other counts of free knobs you can choose....)

The BLIND Knob is the knob that i most not use on EOS.

The idea of EOS (and many other Lightsdesk in this class) is, you can create all views YOU need for your work.
YOU can create all that is comfortable for your workflow.
And in same show other Programmerguys can same time store the views they wanna work with.
Read and learn all about Magic Sheet and find out what a wappon EOS give with this.

And yes,.... the Snapshots at the moment a little buggy,... they not ever jumps back as you have programm them,... but that is a question of Issue List ETC have and find time correct this.

Louis said:

Keyframes not work in theater.
Because the most shows are not a Timecode Show.

jordanhenshaw said:

Of course this is talking about timecode, not anything else. 

Well I'm not talking about those shows, am I? Honestly this isn't even true, as most theaters want to use click tracks these days. 

Snapshots, yes, I have bump buttons for those... but my point remains—the board is fighting me and it shouldn't be doing that. I shouldn't need to keep my hand constantly by that bump button. 

Louis said:

Your thinking seams is like a permanet Timeline and you add Events, Keys (or however you call it) and you can slide this Key all along this Timeline.
That not work in a Theater.

Of course it would... in timecoded shows...

I'm very clearly talking specifically about timecoded shows...

I've heard several people say that ETC is bad for busking, so you would assume it must be great for live theatre, right? Wrong. It's not great for live theatre because when you try to do super advanced things with it, it actively fights you, and you have to come up with all these different workarounds to solve problems that the board itself is creating. The board is good for live cued shows? Great. That's the bare minimum. That's nothing to brag about. 

By "super advanced", I mean a timecoded, 3 minute song with 200 cues inside it. 

jordanhenshaw said:

Well I'm not talking about those shows, am I? Honestly this isn't even true, as most theaters want to use click tracks these days. 

Sorry but No,
Maybe "Big Houses" ala the Scala in Milano or the Maddison Square Garden.
But THAT not the most Theaters....
(If Wikipedia is correct there are around 70 Theater in London,... do you realy believe they all play ever all shows via Timecode???)
If you play an Opera or a Muscial with Live Music forget Timecode.
A "Jump-Around-Show" on a Cruiseship,.. yes this can you do with Timecode.
Because this is all Playback.
But try play in Bayreuth with Playback,....

Yes,...an EOS Desk is not the best for Busking Shows.
But THAT is also NOT the Idea of Electronic THEATER Controll....
And ETC have not create the EOS System for big Music Festivals.
(You need more Hardware Knobs for Busking,... ETC not have a pure Button Extention they try it with the Haptic-Feedback in APEX Systems)

A "normal" Theater Show is also "If-Then",...
An Actor say/do some on Stage, And Action GOOOOOOO.
In this kind works Theater since 200 years?
For me the very most important for a Theater Desk is, i must can change very fast and effectiv TIMINGS in a Show/Cues/Channels.
With EOS you can give every Parameter in every Cue an own time AND change this very fast.
Create a Show first time is at every desk easy.
But then you have Correction.
And during this correction 9 of 10 other desk struggle.
In Theater we play every night a "Live-Movie" with reduce options.
Let me try it explain it with a joke:

Two guy in a Cinema, watch a Western.
At one point one guy say:
Wait,.... next Scene the Cowboy fall down and crash in the Cactus.
The other answer:
No, he will not do..
The Scene comes, the Cowboy fall down and crash in the Cactus.
At the end of movie the first guy say:
You must know i have seen this movie 5 times, so i have know what happen.
The second guy answer:
I have also watch it 5 time,.... but i never though the Cowboy will be so stupid fall in the Cactus again.....

That means, in theater we try every night play a reproduce of the night before, we play that what we have create in many many rehearsals.
And during this work you must can do changes very fast and effectiv.
What does Timecode helps if the Actor jumps two side forward in Textbook?
Will you then shout from FOH, Hey, you must go back,....
With Timecode based Show you then have a big problem.
Not all on stage is ever possible reproduce in a Frame per Second, exact Timestamp as last night.
Forget you can play Live Theater with Timecode.
Maybe it is possible in Parts of the Show.
But then you need also a Timer for Actors and all others that must work in time.
(You have an "old" speed controll rotating Stage via manuel potentiometer, tonight it works with 3 RPM tomorrow with 2,5 RPM,.... after 10-20-30 seconds movement of the Stage you will get a delay....)

Timcode CAN work in a Dance Show where you can set all Cues on Music.
But then the Dancer must also every night exact in time (and this will not happen..).
I have do it in my last Show,.... more then 120 Cue in 60 Minutes, but i must also fire 10 Cues manuel....

I'm light designing Mamma Mia at a very small community theater with only about 500 seats. We only have 2 movers and about 20 LED lights, and the rest are conventionals. 

I'm using timecode. Voulez-Vous has over 100 cues. The entire show will be well over 500 actual cues (not skipping any). 

If I'm doing it on my first light design at a super small theatre, and if most musicals at this theater are tracked, then maybe the reason other light designers at these small theaters don't mess around with timecoding is because the board doesn't make it easy to timecode. Maybe if the board was designed better, more small theaters would timecode their shows.

For shows with live music, there is a thing called a click track. It's pretty cool.

And you really think the conductor of the London Symphony works with a click track????

It's possible that YOU are doing everything with timecode.
Take a look at straight theater.
Working with timecode is not the standard for all theaters around the world
And,...many, many other theaters can work with the "ugly" EOS system.
I also.
The reason theaters don't use timecode with musicals is because they have live music.
In a smaller theater you have the music on tape. It works there too
But even if you use click tracks or a metronome in live music, that does not guarantee that EVERY performance is always absolutely the same speed.
THAT can only be said with certainty when playing back from tape

In the Quick and Dirty video, I showed you how quickly and easily you can create the event list and later manipulate it.
All you want is a different optic.
The workflow does not change with a different optic...

Before you scold the EOS sytem,... learn it...

If YouTube is correct, Voulez-Vous have around 4 minutes.
Means 253 seconds.
That means, all 2,5 second a new Cue in the song,....
If you not have Scanners as movers, it will not work,....

First of all: RTFM.  

You can lock the screens if you do not want them to change. 
man’s then this: the nature of theatre is that it is live. Each performance should be different and all disciplines on stage and behind the scenes should be on their toes to make that happen. In my opinion the board operator should practice those 100 cues in 4 minutes as hard as the dancers or the singers. It’s a collaborative effort!

I must admit that it took me a little while to understand the entire thread, but I think I have an understanding of it now. Please excuse me if I've not quite got what you are after.

While imparting my limited knowledge to a small number of people on a variety of desks, from two screens on an Element with a tiny lighting rig, to five screens on a Ti with a rig of several hundred channels of various dimmers and intelligent fixtures, I developed an approach that lead me to introduce the newer programmer to setting up the environment before finishing patching the rig. Disclaimer - ideal situations rarely exist... so going between many different tasks will be the norm. However, imagine (for a moment) a world where you can set up your environment without being given a constant stream of other information and then you can begin making the rig work.

One example of ergonomics: I value the comfort of my chair (12+ hours a day) more than the the number of screens I have... and I like my screen real-estate on big shows!!

Another example of ergonomics: I want my manual channel selection to appear directly in front of me, so I tell it to be on the screen in front of me. Direct Selects go on the left-hand Eos screen and an external touch screen to my right. Cues go to my left on a monitor at head height, so it's a little glance to my left. However, the info about the active cue is also on the Eos screen in front of me near the manual channel selection. Why? Immediacy of information. This is what works for me, most of the time - and therefore I make sure the desk is programmed to respond to my requests. It doesn't take long to set it up like this, but it did take a lot of learning in order to know what I wanted.

When I was talking with newer programmers, my basic advice was to set up each tab where you expect it to be and once done, select your preferred live tab (in my case manual channels), then record snapshot 1. That can be your default display - and you can also record it as a macro, so it can be a single button operation. I have my own menu system - and I think there are many of us who do similar. It is at this sort of point, when you get comfortable with your approach, Eos doesn't 'fight back'.

Once setup using this approach, double-tapping (for example) effect will show you the effect editor exactly where you specified. You want it on monitor 3? There it is, ready and waiting.

If a certain display is particularly important for the show you're working on, you can give it a dedicated monitor (or corner thereof). You could keep your show control (tab 11) on one screen and have nothing else appear on that screen, then that can be achieved easily.

Also, Eos will be so flexible as to allow you to have various different events triggered by different means. You might want different sources of timecode and manual triggers. It can do it: you could have timecode (internal or external), OSC, MSC and several 'go' buttons' on the same show. It's all possible - but knowing what you want to achieve is paramount: then select the right tool for the job, and the advice here is generally free-flowing so do ask. Maybe Eos isn't the right tool for your specific job.

The board operator, at least at my theater, is the stage manager and, given that the light design usually doesn't get cued until the Saturday or Sunday before tech week, the board op/stage manager usually only gets to practice on the runs on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and the it's a live show. So it's definitely not practical to ask a board operator to learn that many cues the way dancers would: dancers have weeks and months to learn this stuff while the board op has 3 chances to get it right and that's it. The reality of live theatre.

Theatermachine said:

Each performance should be different

Yeah no

Theatermachine said:

You can lock the screens if you do not want them to change.

Someday I'll get to heaven too. 

I at one time had various snapshots programmed to bump buttons, which I can't really use anymore because my ipad (direct selects) is on the table between the board and I. So I would need to rest my hand on top of the ipad to have direct access to those bumps. But hey, maybe I should just put that snapshot on my macro page of direct selects on the ipad. 

What I've learned just now is that I need to change my workflow to reduce—or possibly eliminate altogether—presses of the Live and Blind buttons. Because those buttons consistently annihilate the screen setup I have every time. So maybe I just need to stopping using those stupid buttons. Find a setup that doesn't require me to use them.

The way to avoid this is to lock the frames on your 1st page and then to have one or more unlocked blind frames on page 2 or 3 (patch for instance). Each time a blind window wants to open it opens in this frame and if you press live you return to the untouched first page.

Be sure to store all workspaces/frames/monitors in your initial snapshot. As an extra measure I recall the snapshot as a start-up macro.