which visuliser do you prefer?

Hi there Snowman,

I may be the right Guinea Pig at the right time. I've just decided to switch over from WYG to ESP ... I recently bought VectorWorks 2009 and ESP 2.3, waiting eagerly for 3.0, and would be happy to let you know what I discover in the coming weeks. In the meantime, below find my mini-treatise on what led me to the change, apart from a burning desire to ultimately rid my life of Microsoft:

I am a very longtime WYG user ... My first serial dongle is #252. I really like the program in many ways. However, I've had the same mixed feelings about the program as many others have posted.

WYG to me was a great concept, a totally innovative product at it's inception, very easy to use for the most part, a nice integration of paperwork. But WYG still has some stumbling blocks that remain unresolved. It crashes when pushed very hard, and other times as well. Presentation isn't great, and requires a whole series of "work-arounds" to force the look I want out of it. WYG has served us very well as a way to draw quick and dirty plots, and at the same time basic 3D Cad Flats to sell a concept, or to communicate to other elements of production. Oddly, we use the actual visualization component very little. I find it's useful to clean up palettes, double-check things, basic organization, but doesn't provide enough nuance or detail to be relevant as a true "Pre-Viz" program to me. Maybe none of them do ... but ESP looks the closest to me right now.

One of the fundamental advantages of WYG is also one of it's downfalls ... specifically that it's a totally integrated program: CAD program, 3D modeling, lighting pre-visualizer, and spreadsheet ... all in one lighting specific package. This is incredibly ambitions, and commendable. The problem is that CAST has developed a program that is both ambitions, and serves a very small niche, and therefore has limitations in terms of resources ... hence the higher average cost per user I would assume. They are "lighting people" which makes their understanding of the end user greater, but being relatively small for a software company, they can't possibly pour the resources required in developing a world-class CAD component to their program, like AutoDesk or Nemetschek can. Plus they started so early, they became invested with both PC, and by necessity at the time, with OpenGL, rather than more powerful DirectX available later.

I am beginning to see the whole dilemma as akin to buying a home stereo ... you can either pick the pieces separately, and get the best quality from each component, at greater cost probably ... or you can buy everything integrated into one box, save some money and time figuring it out, and have an easier to use "out of the box" experience. So, I think the underlying question, as many pointed out, is ask what your real goals are. It's a series of trade-offs. If you want the very best, with the highest learning curve, and highest overall cost, probably 3D MAX, Viz, or VW, coupled with ESP. If you don't have 6 months to learn VW, or more for the others, go with WYG, which is very easy to get going on. If you demand great presentation and fast real-time rendering, go with ESP/VW. If you want to spend less initially, go WYG, but prepare to pay more for updates. If you want it all, at a low price ... go fish.

Ultimately I've decided that the "component" approach is the way for me to go ... Get the drawing program, the pre-visualizer, and the spreadsheet separated to get the most control and power. Re-learning a new program and workflow, and dropping 10K was not that exciting to me ... but the prospect of finally getting where we want to be is. We shall see.

... I'll know a lot more in a few months.

PS - I also think it would be great for the Hog to ... umm ... "Host" a pre-viz solution in a more integrated fashion, like the GrandMA does. However, I don't think it's a good idea for HES to actually develop their own application head-to-toe. I imagine their hands are full with the Hog OS, and are best concentrating resources on perfecting that to the extent possible.

Just a question, what is the price of ESP full options and the price of Vectorworks.

What are prices for the ESP update and vetorworks update.

Same questions with 3DS.

Thanks

ESP is priced by the universe:

1U = $750
2U = $1,500
3U = $2,250

... and so on, adding 750 per universe, capped at 10 universes, where it becomes unlimited number of channels for $7500. The annual subscription is comparatively low, $150 per year, which is supposed to give you tech support and access to all upgrades. That's my understanding anyway. There is also an educational version for $450, and they sell "V-boxes" for DMX output to consoles that don't have direct connectivity.

Of course the system requirements for ESP are pretty high, so factor that in, unless you run it on an Intel MAC, in which case I'm told any of them are fine, run in Boot Camp right now, and native MAC when 3.0 comes out.

VectorWorks 2009 Spotlight with RenderWorks lists for $2,195, but I got a 25% discount on upgrading my VW 12.5 to 2009, so it might be worth calling Nemetschek and asking if they have any specials on the software itself.

I looked into 3D Max about 6 months ago ... don't remember exactly, but want to say it was $4000 range, and was sold under a pretty tight distributorship, so there weren't any real deals I could find ... maybe save a few hundred with some looking.

Thanks Steve, I think I will prefer to buy a DP 8000 This year.

I'm agree with you a hog pre-viz would be the best solution! :D

Ps I think I found VW update, something between 500 to 600$ following versions.

I just heard rumors that grand MA 3D is going to start selling there new version for all consoles. Rumored release is june 2009. Did anyone else hear that rumor? Would that be comparable to Vison?

Looked into Wysiwyg for years. Overpriced and cumbersome to use and setup, do drawings and so on. takes to long to get the end result.
Upgrades are also rediculously expensive.
Then there is Vectorworks. Again, cumbersone to use and setup, do drawings and so on. If ESP vision could work without Vectorworks, it would be a great visulaizer to use.
Best cad program hands down is Autocad. It's fast, inexpensive compared to Wig, and very user friendly.
LD Assistant version 08 has visualization and uses artnet interface. Cad is Autodesk shell so it's already got the most powerful cad available.
You can literally build your venue in a few minutes and have a finished drawing in a short amount of time.
How much do you pay per universe of Wig control?
With LD Assistant, you don't pay anything extra for the visualization or per universe and it has capability to handle more universe connectivity than you would ever use on a show.
My upgrade cost from an earlier version of LD assistant without the visualization to the new version was under $1k.
ESP vision rocks. If only it could be coupled with Autocad.
WIG is just overpriced and takes too long to get what you want.

People who think Wyg's cad sucks, I recommend using Google Sketchup... very powerful and easy to use and Wyg supports it's native format.

Light Converse.... stunning visuals... seriously!!

Best,

I use wyg . . . have for years. Of course cost is an issue with it, and of course the plots you get out of it are really weak. I do like Wyg tho. I only use it for pre-visualization, still cad on vectorworks (I know, I'm a glutton for punishment and extra-work). Nothing quite like that massive library . . . I am also interested in Light Converse.

[quote=srautane;32580]People who think Wyg's cad sucks, I recommend using Google Sketchup... very powerful and easy to use and Wyg supports it's native format.

+1 on Sketchup. I like to do all my 3D on Sketchup and then go to WYG. WYG has improved the CAD features slightly over the years but it is still an awful CAD environment.

I've used WYG since 2003 and taught it since 2006 as part of my lighting curriculum, and the upgrades are just too pricey to continue especially with the freakin' dongle and dongle replacement policy.

I could never get WYG to speak to Hog either. Changes on the HOG would reflect in WYG, but I couldn't pre-design in WYG and hook it up to HOG and get what I did in WYG to show up live in HOG. This is what I thought the product was FOR in the first place! According to the person I spoke to at Cast, WYG is not designed that way. It was designed to reflect what is live onstage in your WYG. I think that is BS... I mean, what is the POINT of a visualizer if you can't design offline and bring it to the live environment ready to go?

I'm looking into ESP.

Actually...the Wyg autofocus stuff is now working correctly. It took them a while to get things right, but it does work now. I can select fixtures in Wyg and they show up in the Hog3. Give a focus position in WYG and they show up as P/T values in the Hog.

So, that does work now....

Thanks JX!

light converse should be in the options! It is also very good and high quality ! There are also lots of special effects... (Pyro , heavy fog , water screen , laser , co2 and moving object , mirror ball , video input ..)

Light Converse is by far the better value of all visualizers on the market.

I just did my last show of Wyg R22. and it saved my ass. I walked into a rig i did not pack. there was many many things missing.I didn"t get any in venue program time. Annyways Wyg did everything I needed it to. I had set up the show and programed with wyg a week before. CADing with it took less the 30 minutes, Placment took another 15, and addressing took 2. Granted it was a small show, 5 truss, 24 mac 250 Entour, 32 par, 13 led par, and 8 lekos.

I run it all off a tablet pc (hp tx1228ca). Works wonders for me. I guess it really comes down to how you work. On a sidenote i do plots in VW 11. also only takes 30 min for an average plot