Roadhog

I agree 100% with hillary.

The Smpte widget is nice and all, but compared to the price of a midisport 1x1 it is a bit expensive..
Especially since Midi is included on the Hog 1000, it seems to be the only feature that was not improved upon on the road hog.

Joshua Wood

Hillary and Josh,

I'll pass on your request to the powers here and see if there's anything we can do about this. I certainly think that it's conceivable to add drivers for a third party MIDI device like the MidiSport, but adding drivers that we can't control always has some risk associated with it.

For now, just remember that the Road Hog is targeted to smaller productions and that if you need MIDI you can certainly use either the Wholehog 3 console or Hog iPC.

Thanks.

[QUOTE=teerickson]For now, just remember that the Road Hog is targeted to smaller productions and that if you need MIDI you can certainly use either the Wholehog 3 console or Hog iPC.

Thanks.

That is not such a good rationale Tom. In this world of more high tech finding its way into productions (ie, DIY hardware, open source communities, general geekery on the rise) cross communication and integration between control equipment has become more commonplace. I work on plenty of smaller productions that utilize a lot of high tech in their performance and MIDI is used quite a bit to pull all aspects of performance control (audio, video, even scenic) together. It has been cost prohibitive to rent a larger console and I have had to go to other manufacturers to find a control solution that works within the budget.
MIDI implementation to end users with a console like this is more important to us than you think it is.
The hog 2 had a great MIDI implementation which has since disappeared in any iteration current of hog. Why go backwards into the future?

This MIDI discussion vividly illustrates how hard it is to meet market expectations and make everybody happy. It's not really a matter of stepping backwards. It only appears that way to certain segments of the market. In general, (I know there are exceptions) I think many segments of the industry (TV, Concerts, Sports, Tradeshows) have long since joined the film, TV, recording and presentation industries using SMPTE timecode as the standard for timing/syncing & automation. Therefore you're seeing it replace MIDI in many products. When the Hog II family was built MIDI was a popular choice for timecode and other interfaces. Now LTC/VITC SMPTE timecode is more of the standard (particularly outside the theater market) and your seeing the Hog III products reflect that by offering the LTC SMPTE widget and external IOI.

You just don't MIDI connections on the vast majority of the profession auiod audio/ broadcast video playback devices that people use to trip consoles nowadays. Even scene automation, pyro and other interfaces are offering SMPTE interfaces. I have nothing against MIDI or MSC, but the fact is these console products are marketed to a wider audience and SMTPE has more of the market share. So HES offers the LTC SMPTE widget as the option because for many people it seems to be a more current standard. I hope they offer MIDI as an option, but I can understand the reasoning when you look at the larger context of who this console is marketed to.

OK, at the risk of this turning into a big back-and-forth thing here, I totally disagree with, well, not all of that, but definitely with the idea that an LTC trigger is somehow more "relevant" in the modern age than a MIDI trigger. The bottom line is that this console without MIDI is significantly hobbled in any circumstance in which it needs to be sync'd to or triggered by anything other than LTC. What happens when you're not syncing to an audio track? "They say" that one of the markets that they're targeting with this product is installations. Without the inclusion of MIDI, you've necessarily excluded any installation that isn't using LTC. Forgetting theater for a minute, there are PLENTY of architectural/entertainment installations that don't require syncronization to audio.

In fact, to me, if they wanted to market a less expensive console, a more flexible option would have been to include MIDI and exclude an LTC audio option, since there are existing, cheap, no-brainer, off-the-shelf solutions that convert LTC into MTC, which is what plenty of folks out there are already doing with Hog PC. As far as I'm aware, there is currently no way to do the reverse i.e. to convert SMPTE into a Midi Show Control signal, which doesn't even make any sense anyway.

I'm no software engineer (so please forgive any potential ignorance on my part), but it seems to me that at this point, the addition of MIDI would be pretty simple anyway. The console already has functioning USB, I can buy a MIDI interface for $50 or whatever at the local Guitar Center, the Windows drivers for said MIDI interfaces have already been written, and the Hog 3 software can already deal with MIDI just fine. Seems that the ONLY reason not to add it would be for some kind of marketing reason.

I'm also no market anaylst, so I can only speak from my own experience. I'm just saying that the potential cost-to-power ratio of this console is SO great that I could see myself using on maybe as much as 40% of the shows I do, however the lack of MIDI renders it unusable for at least 90% of them.

It is not my desire to start a debate, and I DO feel MIDI TC would be a useful feature of this console. It would open it up to more users. BUT I feel some incorrect assumptions are being made.

1. The only use for LTC SMPTE is for syncing to an audio track. In fact more video, graphics and automation systems use SMPTE than audio devices. Remember what SMPTE stands for: Society of Motion, Picture & Television Engineers. Many automation systems installed in a variety of applications use SMTPE to generate daylight-clock time to control everything from houselights to projection screens, HVAC systems, window blinds, fountains etc. with NO AUDIO TRACK whatsoever. How many of these systems have MIDI interfaces? Very few if any. Try to find a MIDI port on a professional TV camera, VTR, CG, video switcher, Leightronix event manager, Crestron/AMX system, etc.

Remember what MIDI stands for: Music Instrument Digital Interface. This is was originally developed for electronic instruments like sythesizers and drum machines to talk together and stay in sync via MIDI clock time. (MC) MIDI Timecode (MTC) was adopted later to assist with recording devices and other things to stay in sync, but was still driven primarily by the music, recording and theater industries. Since the lighting, scenery and motion control industries work closely with those hardware producers, it was easy to adopt this as interconnection standard particularly considering the size of the connectors on smaller components and infancy of LTC SMPTE timecode.

2. While it is digital, MIDI timecode is not as accurate and can not keep up with information streams as well as SMPTE. MIDI TC can suffer from what is known as jitter or lag where the info can be jostled about in a sense. This is well documented problem and in many applications doesn't prove to be a problem. (I know there are plenty of people who have used it and NEVER had a problem.) However in the video world and other markets where absolute frame accuracy is needed, SMPTE has been increasingly adopted as the primary way to tie devices together. As for converting SMPTE to MIDI, well again every conversion creates lag and I have seen plenty of people frustrated with the Hog II systems lagging behind during complicated sequences. So yes there are cheap no-brainer conversion, but they don't always solve the problem.

3. As with S-Video, the consumer grade DIN cables for MIDI do not offer locking connections. Again this is not as important to some markets as others, but it huge in other applications such as the touring and rental markets.

4. Yes there are some advantages to MIDI when splitting and looping through (SMPTE via BNC offers loop throughs and is the standard in the video world.) it is easier and in many cases more reliable to run SMPTE long distances via XLR or better yet BNC Coax than stringing a MIDI cable even with the signal loss and crosstalk that might be present in certain SMTPE systems.

The lighting industry is considerable smaller than the film, TV, recording and presentation industries and sometimes what we perceive as a standard way of doing things may not be the primary protocol of a larger community. HES is learning this with some of their digital lighting products. It's part of the growing pains of increasing integration and convergence between industries.

Just out of curiosity-
The pictures and video of the Roadhog show a red LED button on the top of the console between the two screens. I don't see it listed anywhere in the documentation. Does anybody know what this does yet?
Thanks,
Kevin

[QUOTE=kphogan]Just out of curiosity-
The pictures and video of the Roadhog show a red LED button on the top of the console between the two screens. I don't see it listed anywhere in the documentation. Does anybody know what this does yet?
Thanks,
Kevin

I believe if you look closely at some of the closeups, it looks like it's the LED from the USB Stick.

Hiya gang. Im glad to see this console out and can immediately think of quite a few projects that could really use one. I do not completely understand why it is incapable of running hog2 pc, but im sure there is a good reason.

Just to add my $0.02 to the MIDI vs SMPTE question: I use and see SMPTE way more than MIDI for any sort of show control. However, considering the price range and market of this console it would seem that this above any other console HES is offering (spare the Hog3PC) would be be prone to being involved in low cost MIDI systems. Almost all of the MIDI systems i find in use with a lighting console are simply because they cant afford or are are not experienced enough to use SMPTE. I too see little reason a USB MIDI setup could not be worked out some how.

As for USB devices as a backup medium, I am strongly in favor of the option. I have been using usb flash drives for so long I still have a 128mb that I remember paying $90 for. I use flash drives very often and in my experience as long as you do not go shopping for them in the bargain bin at frys electronics or choose those colorful three packs for a low low price they stand up pretty well. Aside from the problems people have with the cheapies almost all of the problems I my self and other people I have seen having are caused by improper mounting and unmounting.

A neat little trick I suggest once you guys finally move past the 2.4.19 kernel is to play a scripting trick with mounting backup volumes. I have a thumb drive used for small backups that is subject to a script keeping it unmounted unless i attempt to read or write anything to it. Ten seconds after any reading or writing stops it automatically un-mounts the drive keeping it safe from crashes or being unplugged.

Of course all of this would be unnecessary if only you used a journaling file system with the flash drive. Unfortunately then it would become incompatible with windows, which im sure is a major reason most people want flash drives on the HogIII in the first place.

Kevin,

Jon is correct. The red LED that you see at the top of the console is the indicator on the 1GB USB memory stick that is included with the console.

Adam,

The reason that the Road Hog does not run Hog 2PC is because Hog 2PC has been discontinued and not in active development for quite some time now. We have been making library changes occasionally, but we don't have any developers working on Hog 2. The Wholehog 3 control software has replaced Hog 2 and will be the platform that we use on products as we move forward.

If you are currently working in an environment that uses Wholehog 2 shows, you have a few options. First, you could use a Hog iPC that will natively run the Wholehog 2 control software. Second, you could send your Wholehog 2 show files to support@flyingpig.com and have them converted to Wholehog 3 show files.

I hope this helps.

I'm a programmer and a Wholehog 3 owner. I agree with all of you that MIDI (particularly MSC) is an important feature.

Before this turns into a war, I'd like to put a few things in perspective.

This is the first Wholehog product that we've released without MIDI connections. If you need a solution with MIDI, you can use either the Hog iPC or the Wholehog 3 console. We aren't giving up on MIDI or phasing it out of our products. The Road Hog price is approximately half that of a Hog iPC and the Hog iPC is obviously priced less than the Wholehog 3 console. This is our least expensive console and one of the things that differentiates it from the rest of our product line. Without a clearly differentiated set of features at each price point, our less expensive consoles would have a negative impact on the sales of the consoles above them in the product line.

The Road Hog is targeted at small shows and small installations. When I think about the churches and TV studios and dance recitals and hotel ballroom corporate events that I used to work on, there were many shows where I didn't need any show control or timecode. Those are the shows that we are hoping to see the Road Hog on.

It sounds like some of you feel that you would have a use for the Road Hog *if* it had MIDI. I can certainly understand this as well. Some of you may know Josh Wood. He's a regular poster in these forums. I used to program touring kid's shows with Josh and we would often have a 75 minute show with 1500+ cues all running off of MTC / MSC with only a few universes of DMX. The Road Hog would have been a great solution, if it had MIDI.

The fact of the matter, though, is that the Road Hog *is* a great solution for many people and many shows, and as I mentioned above, we certainly have other solutions for the shows that require more automation.

One last point to think about, is that MIDI ports are something that we could choose to provide as an expansion. There are a few ways this could be possible. I'm not saying that this is being worked on or going to happen, but I also wouldn't commit myself to saying that the Road Hog will never be able to send or receive MIDI.

I hope this clears things up a bit. Thanks for all of the good comments and discussion. Please continue to comment and ask questions.

Thanks.

Just some common sense on this thread that is now 60 posts long...
God! Please Get over the MIDI. Buy a freaking Midi Widget. Their only $1,000

Look at the Aprx MSRP numbers and consider
$4,000 Programming Wing
$3,600 Playback Wing
$3,000 Super Widget
$1,000 Reliable Computer
$ 700 15" Touch Screen
$ 700 15" Touch Screen
$13,000
or
Roadhog $12,500 to $13,000

DUH

I'll spend the same if I build a hog PC as I would on a road hog but the road hog is self contained. Personally I want a self contained trouble free console.

Anyway, the Midi Widget is the same extra expense either way.


I'm sorry but I think of this realistically.
I hate Hog 2. :aargh4:

but

When I spend 5k on a small quick rig rental, I have $300 to spend on a Hog 2 and not $1,000 to spend on a Hog 3.

Rental companies know this. They say "hell, I'd rather have a console my clients can actually afford to rent so that I have it rented every week."
Roadhog just became my salvation.

When I call a rental house with $300, I want the console I choose, not the old piece of crap they had from 10 years ago w sticky wheels and dirty faders. I also like touch screens I can read with windows actually wide enough to add the number of palettes I use.

I have mastered everything.

Hog 3
Maxxyz
GrandMA
Vista T4
Vector Red
Diamond

and all the juniors

Hog PC
Hog iPC
Maxxyz PC
GrandMA Light
GrandMA Ultra-Light
GRandMA Micro
Vista T2
Vista App
Vector Blue
Vector Orange
Vector Green
Saphire
Pearl
Asure

When I spend $1,000 to $1,200 a week, I get a large console. When I spend $300 to $500 a week, I get one of the three choices from 90% of the rental houses.
Hog 2, GrandMA Ultra-Light, or Pearl
I don't want a Pearl.
I don't want a Hog 2.
I can tolerate a GrandMA Ultra-Light.
If however, I can get a new Roadhog, then I will choose that.

I really don't care who buys a Roadhog as long as you're one of the 100 or so rental houses I prefer to use. Get over the Midi, get over the extra touch screens. It's better than a Hog 2 and my first choice on a 120k w 20 movers and a media server.

Listen Todd,
There is no reason to be abusive,
Just because YOU don't see a need for midi in the roadhog, that doesn't mean that other people don't.

Since it seems you have never needed midi in a desk, that is just fine for you, Many of us use midi on much if not all of our shows.

As for buying a PC system vs. a roadhog,
If you want to be on a tour and spend a half an hour plugging in 7 pieces of equipment vs just plugging in a desk you can go ahead and do that.
I would much prefer having my desk be self contained vs 2 wings, 2 touchscreens plus all the associated gak.

Of course, that is just my opinion, others may vary
Joshua Wood

I think they are about to hit the ball out of the park with the Road Hog.:headbang: Look at the competition. You can get a grand ma micro for $16000. Three grand more than the price I hear being kicked around for the Road Hog and although you get midi, you DON'T get 2 decent size touchscreens a 10 key keypad or a built in trackball. Plus you are limited to 1024 channels. Then you have the Avolites Pearl that doesn't even have a touchscreen a fixture library that you need a manual to translate and only 2 encoder wheels:angryfire: ( WHY AVOLITES WHY CANT YOU AND AT LEAST 1 MORE ENCODER!!!) :06: Oh and by the way both of the above mention products still require a floppy disk to transfer the show to another console or PC. At least Avo is upgrading to USB sticks on the Pearl 2008 and Expert. The point is that I think the Austin Guys have come out with a good VALUE. A product that will definatly fill a need in the smaller console market that previously was filled by other Flying Pig products. I can only hope that the Road Hog will force prodution companies to finnaly part with their aging Hog 2's. :poke: The one thing that I am really waiting on is the pixelmapping funtion for the Hog 3. :poke: Oh by the way it is standard on the Grand Ma Micro.