Android VS Ipods

Tim,
I honestly understand what you are saying. And I agree with some of it.
But, I think my point stands that it is easier to program for 1 device, and therefore is more cost effective.
You say yourself, "what sometimes happens, is that programmers get lazy and write to a fixed screen resolution".
This will not be a issue on Ios, as all devices run the same software, and are built to deal with the differences internally.
Therefore, they are easier to program for.....

As for the old Mac vs. PC argument, I have hand built 10-12 PC's for myself, as well as for friends, but several years ago, I got tired of dealing with all of Windows problems, and went Mac, and have never been happier.

But I will be honest, I have never dealt with any of the linux distos, but I would be interested in taking a look at it, even if it were just as a hobby.
Do you have any disto suggestions? ubuntu? redbox?

There was a recent PC world article,

The gist of it is that if you leave out the ipod touch, then you are correct, android and ios are pretty much equal. (They seem to think the ipod touch is not a real device, and not worthy of consideration?)

15,500,000 iphone
15,000,000 ipod touch
7,368,000 ipad
37,868,000 Total

23,900,000 Android devices

Thats the way I see the numbers,
If HES were to bring out a app that would only run on a tablet, the numbers would be even more skewed to ios.
%93 of all tablet sales have been the ipad.

If I were writing tablet software, I know what platform I would write it for....

Thanks for the lively discussion Tim, I greatly respect your opinions,
Be well.

Joshua Wood

Joshua -

I can't dispute that the test matrix, if nothing else, is easier on a single platform, but then again, that tends to inspire lazy programming, and bad software as well . . . And the iPhone and iPad are radically different resolutions as well, so who is to say that Joe Blow app designer won't botch it there either? Keep in mind that most apps on both platforms are not written by the underlying OS provider/hardware provider, and thus are at very much at risk of folks cutting corners.

Myself, I see the strengths of the open platform far overshadowing any advantage of a "single source" platform. Apparently so did Apple . . . why else are they now on pretty much standard PC Intel hardware?

I also use Windows as an example, since most folks can relate to the platform . . . I don't use it for anything I care about (well, other than Wyg/Hog2PC) running 100% or my business and personal computing on Linux. Myself, I start with the Slackware distro, since it is the most pure-Unix like (IE no proprietary tools/crutches), and pretty much roll my own distro, but then again, I am an old-school *nix guy, so that is what I am the most familiar with. The good news is that all the distros use the same basic utility set, and the exact same kernel code, so compatibility is good. Heck, for that matter, the X Window graphic system, as used on all *nix boxes is totally network portable - no matter what the processor, *nix flavor, etc. Anything run on one will display correctly on any other . . . no matter what - The X standard guarantees that. And no retarded bull$hit like Windows remote desktop - you just point any application to any screen you want it on, and it's there . . .

Due to the "footprint" it's understandable that Android didn't carry the X video standard along with it, but if it had, things would be even cleaner, other than apps that are coded to a minimum resolution that are programmed to not run on lower res screens.

So, for a Linux distro to play with, a lot of folks who are relatively green seem to like Ubuntu, although I have have never used it. The RedHat flavors are also good . . . heck, I don't know of any that won't work - it's just a case of what additional tools and look and feel you want - they all do the same thing at the end of the day, although SuSe and RedHat are the ones you see in the data centers of the Fortune 500 . . . .

Oh, and since Android is far far more than an MP3 player, I leave out the iPod *anything* from the comparison . . . . if the functionality isn't comparable, then the comparison is meaningless. At this time, iPhone vs. Android phone is one comparison, as is iPad vs Android tablet. I think Android wins the handheld comparison easily if you choose to compare similar units. Apple still has the tablet space simply because Android tablets are just releasing, and there is not enough time to see how well they will do in the market. Keep in mind that Apple had a big head start with the iPhone too, and appears to have lost it over time . . .

Due to the low number of Android tabs to date, I see the comparison more like:

15,500,000 iPhone.
23,750,000 Android (left off a small margin for the small number of tablets shipped to date . . and I think 150,000 is being very generous . . . ).

- Tim

Thanks for the well thought out response,

I do have issue with your statement that the ipod touch is just a MP3 player.
It is the exact same device as a iphone, without the phone.
It runs the same apps, and with very few limitations (GPS), works the same.
The ipod touch starts at $229.
What price do android devices start at?
Do they have a similar product?

What I am trying to get at is for the purposes of a Hog remote, iphone, Ipod touch, and ipad are all interchangeable.

As for ipad, ipad will run all the iphone/ipod touch apps, either in a "window" in the original resolution, or it will stretch the app to fill the entire screen. Both with no reduction of functionality, or increased programming time.

That being said, if the developer was interested, you could also implement a ipad/iphone universal app, that would have a different screen layout for ipad vs. iphone. This would however result in the increased programming time we were discussing in having multiple platforms.

Joshua Wood

[QUOTE=tadawson;54167]At least Chamsys and Hog-3 are on an open platform, but HES seems to be doing their best to cripple the Hog line with WinBlowz . . .
my RFU for 2PC and tablet-friendly encoders for 3PC are made possible by the enormously well-documented extesibility of the Win32 API's; no Wholehog SDK's, DLL's, RPC's, IPC's needed - 100% enabled by Windows.

i also sometimes go directly from 2PC to E1.31, without widgets and without touching the 2PC binaries.


what is the existance and maintenance of 3PC on Windows-based consoles preventing you from doing today?

[QUOTE=lumen;54165]Sorry gents but the lighting industry control platforms are a prime example of closed, limited, crippled platforms. When was the last time a lighting company developed an api dev kit for one of their controllers?

i wish they would, maybe features everyone has been requesting would make it into the builds sooner than 10 years later. the sad part is that here we are 10+ grand into a piece of hardware be it Martin,MA,Avo,Hog,Vista,Compulight and it cannot be built upon by the end user. bollocks i say. @ HES i still love you guys though.
productizable, quality, architecture-first frameworks don't seem to exist outside Carallon, though they should be put in place and exposed by every manufacturer with a desire to remain relevant.

i have little reason to believe, but much hope that the new remote control protocols will be either documented or non-obfuscated, and will be broadly consumable rather than limited to BLS in-house and licensed to visualizer ISV's.

[QUOTE=quinn;54179]
what is the existance and maintenance of 3PC on Windows-based consoles preventing you from doing today?

Stability, plain and simple . . .

Windows is a set of bugs disguised as an O/S . . .

I just spent 4 hours today verifying that a Windows box (2003) doesn't give any errors trying to write to a read-only disk . . . and failing . . .

Yet another stellar Redmond feature . . . .

Oh, and on a *nix platform, running X as a graphic standard, you could remote display the entire console to any X compatible computer, no matter what the OS or processor . . . API? What's that . . . Oh, that's what folks use to access stuff on closed platforms . . . that's it . . .

- Tim

[QUOTE=tadawson;54204]Windows is a set of bugs disguised as an O/S . . .

I have a workstation using Windows 7 and last Macbook pro, I haven't any trouble with the Workstation since more than 20 month and windows 7 on the Macbook. in one month I have reinstalled 4 times OSX, sent back the macbook to Apple, and all troubles are not yet resolved. Win and OSX have same stability troubles with new hardware and new Software versions, the only difference is that OSX can run on 4 different hardwares and windows many hundreds.

It kills me how some folks seem to think that since they have had *ONE* box work for them, that they have been anything more than just plain lucky. While M/S does tend to improve - albeit very slowly - over time, their documented bug list in still in the tens of thousands the last time I checked . . . It also amazes me how some folks also think that if you are not a M/S fanboy that you must be one for Apple . . . no recognition whatsoever for the simple fact that the highest quality platform out there is neither of those . . . . While you do see some Windows in the enterprise, you see just about zero Apple - a small smattering on the desktop, but that's it . . . Apples bailed from the server (IE more reliability critical) market, since nobody wanted it . . .

Truly amazing . . . .

- Tim

Well Tim,
I think software rules all.
Microsoft office is only available for 2 platforms, Windows and OSX.
While things like Open office exist, they don't' really work as well as the "real thing"
If you are building a server, by all means linux is the way to go.
if you are trying to have a computer for 99.9% of the world, windows or osx are the way to go.
More support, and easier to use, with infinitely more software options.

And as for Apple "bailing from the server market", There are many server farms running right now, on nothing but mac minis.
the server farm is one of the more popular purposes of that computer.

You may be correct that the xserve line is discontinued, but they are definitely still serving the small business/home server market.
Lion will also include a unlimited server license with every OS sold.
They are doing away with the separate server versions.
This can only expand the use of osx as a server.

Also, I don't think you responded to my ipod touch comments above:
I do have issue with your statement that the ipod touch is just a MP3 player.
It is the exact same device as a iphone, without the phone.
It runs the same apps, and with very few limitations (GPS), works the same.
The ipod touch starts at $229.
What price do android devices start at?
Do they have a similar product?

Joshua Wood

Josh -

Let me ask you this: Have you ever run Linux (or attempted to) as a primary platform for yourself, or is this just speculation based on "the word out there"?

I have been running Linux as my primary desktop, for both personal and business use for over 10 years (My first peek at linux was when it was a 0.x kernel, and came on about 30 floppies . . . now *that* wasn't terribly usable, but it grew up *fast*!). I have yet to find anything (well, other than Wyg) that I can't do faster/better/cheaper on Linux than anything else. (Note: I'm not a gamer - if I want games, I'll buy a game system . . . .).

I have:

Multichannel audio record/editing
Photo edit/manipulation equivalent to Photoshop
Video creation/edit/render . . .
Full compat with all MSoft Office products, save for Visio. (OpenOffice *IS* that good!)
DMX console capability if I want it.
The same e-mail and browsers that most use.
Full interface capability to pretty much any digital camera.
Full interface capability to pretty much any printer.
Full PC Board CAD design capability.
Skype (don't use it though, but it's there . . . ).
A full suite of satellite tracking packages.
HAM radio interfaces, and digital interface code.
Security the likes of which neither Apple or MSoft can come close
Stability the likes of which MSoft has never come close, although Apple is
approaching, once they flushed MacOS and went to OS/X
A far more supportable platform that I can generally resolve any issues on by
myself, with no need to bleed money . . . or wait forever . . . or be blown off . . .
A full-featured accounting system for the business.
A full featured finance manager for all my personal stuff, with full bank interface.
The ability to run a lot of Windows binaries within Linux, if needed (but frankly,
although the capability is there, I have never had the need . . . . Never had the
nerve to try it with Wyg yet, though . . . maybe one of these days . . . If I could
pull that off, the Win load would get wiped to give more disk space.)

And all with no need to bleed money to anyone! There are purchaseable packages for Linux that fill other needs, but I have yet to find any reason to spend anything. The open source stuff tends to be better, and having a phone number to call, pay money, and be blown off doesn't interest me . . .

So, while others may have other needs, I find, at least in my world (which I don't think of as that small or limited) that my experiences pretty clearly contradict your statements . . .

I don't want to get this into "platform wars", but I guess I do feel a bit of a need to be a bit of an evangelist for the Linux side, since most folks I have seen that have not tried it, are not doing so for reasons that are mostly myth (not to mention spew from the big commercial vendors Mktg. departments attempting to save their undeserved revenue!).

And I hope your weekend is going well, and thanks for a civil discussion!

- Tim

Hey Tim,
My problem with linux is compatibility.

I need my text documents to be compatible with word. (including macros) (haven't tried recently but didn't work in openoffice)
I need my spreadsheets to be compatible with excel. (including macros)(same comment about open office as above)
My video archives need to be compatible with final cut pro, or avid.
My audio archives need to be compatible with pro tools.
I need to be able to run Hog pc. (natively, in a show ready enviroment)
This is not every requirement, but a good starting point to my line of thinking for my personal needs for a work computer.

I actually agree with your comments about linux in general, but these are the reasons I am stuck with windows, or osx. (Obviously not OSX for hog)
Obviously these are my needs only, and many others may be better served by linux than I would be.

And,
I still would like your response to my points above regarding the ipod touch as a hog remote?

Joshua Wood

[QUOTE=Woodj32177;54268]Hey Tim,
My problem with linux is compatibility.

I need my text documents to be compatible with word. (including macros)
I need my spreadsheets to be compatible with excel. (including macros)
My video archives need to be compatible with final cut pro, or avid.
My audio archives need to be compatible with pro tools.
I need to be able to run Hog pc.
This is not every requirement, but a good starting point to my line of thinking for my personal needs for a work computer.

I actually agree with your comments about linux in general, but these are the reasons I am stuck with windows, or osx. (Obviously not OSX for hog)
Obviously these are my needs only, and many others may be better served by linux than I would be.

And,
I still would like your response to my points above regarding the ipod touch as a hog remote?

Joshua Wood

Word docs: In my experience, they are
XCell docs: In my experience, they are
Video: I can't tell you, I don't use those tools to know. While a proprietary format
may not be supported, I would be very surprised if a standard format would not
give full compatibility.
Audio: If they are 2 track, then via standards, they are. If multitrack, perhaps not,
since formats are proprietary. I can, however, currently export 20 different formats,
and have not even been trying to be compatible - other output drivers exist, so
likely no problem here either . . .
HogPC: Definitely an issue, which I too run with Wyg in Win. Not a valid reason for
me to cripple myself with Win all the time though - I only boot Win for this myself.

If your goal is to use "What the Joneses are using" then you may be forced to Win. If your goal is to get work reliably done, as I do then Win is a liability, more often than not . . .

And while the iPod touch may be OK as a Hog remote, I still don't regard it as competitive in the comparison, since the functionality is still just a subset of the typical Android deployment. And no, I don't know of any Android based media player, but I have not looked either. I still run my *one* Apple product - an original iPod. The news ones are too small in capacity for me, and I like the old UI far better!

- Tim

Gotcha,
Perhaps I had a old version of open office.
As for video and audio,
I need the actual projects to be accessible, not just the output. As I get projects from audio and video companies fairly regularly.
(no good solution here. I understand that)

To be honest I am mostly forced to osx, with hog being the exception that forces me to bootcamp.

As to why the iPod touch isn't competitive, I am unsure as to your reasoning.
Is it your argument that it shouldn't be included, because there isn't anything similar in android?
The relative inexpense of a iPod touch is the good reason we will see a iOS hog remote long before we see a android version.. IMHO.

In any case enjoy the remainder of your weekend, it's cold as hell here in mn.... May 1 and less than 40 degrees outside.... :aargh4:

Josh

[QUOTE=tadawson;54245]It kills me how some folks seem to think that since they have had *ONE* box work for them, that they have been anything more than just plain lucky. While M/S does tend to improve - albeit very slowly - over time, their documented bug list in still in the tens of thousands the last time I checked . . . It also amazes me how some folks also think that if you are not a M/S fanboy that you must be one for Apple . . . no recognition whatsoever for the simple fact that the highest quality platform out there is neither of those . . . . While you do see some Windows in the enterprise, you see just about zero Apple - a small smattering on the desktop, but that's it . . . Apples bailed from the server (IE more reliability critical) market, since nobody wanted it . . .

Truly amazing . . . .

- Tim

If you are talking about my thread, you are completely irrelevant about me and what I think.

Good Evening
Best
Stephane

No, not specifically . . . I was just making a comment on a lot of folks who base an entire opinion on a sample set of 1 or 2 . . . Sounds like you have had the opposite experience - the Mac kept blowing up. I used to see that constantly on MacOS, but thought it has been pretty much resolved since OS/X came around . . .

- Tim